New here and new tank

Hi all,

Love this ATS and S.M. for pushing people tu use it !

I am putting in place a new small reef tank, it's a 50x50x50 (in centimeters) with a bow front and has a sump in its back, like a Red sea max, but with a 150w MH light.
The water content should be around 95 liters and 10Kg of LR.
And of course I am seriously thinking of fitting an ATS to it (in IT).

Main goals and benefits from what I understand:

_Mechanical filtering is done bay algae (no floss)
_Chemical filtering as well (PO4, NO3, etc....and no SKIMMER)
_Added O2
_Cooling when fan added (with 150W MH on a small tank it's very good)
_Less water changes to remove harmfull stuff.

So my questions are:
_If I use a the benefit of cooling the tank with the ATS, I'll need to add RO water to compensate, and if there is less water changes I need to add Ca+Mg, so can I compensate with direct TAP water ran through a carbon filter (to remove chlorine and other stuff) to avoid using kalk water ?

_What screen size should I use to have the best system ,and flowrate ?
_the tank is empty for the moment and it will be started withing the next weeks, so I understood I can start straight with an ATS rather than Skimmer and floss, correct ?


Thanks for the help and long live MS !

I've done some calculations:


35Gph per inch => 52 Liters per centimeter
1 square inch per Gallon => 1.7 square centimeter per Liter
0.5W per Gallon => 0.13W per liter

So, if I'm right, for my tank:

15 Watts of light is more than enough
200 square centimetrs of surface as well (171 by calculation), a 10Hx 20L mesh is a good size, with a 1000L/H pump.

Correct ?

Don't forget that's 1 square inch per gal lit on both sides, so if you're lighting it on one side only then double that.
As for the water, there were a few people who were going to try just that, using tap water as top-off instead of RO, but I'm not sure if anyone has tried it yet.
Also, don't expect to get 1000l/h out of a 1000l/h pump, a reasonable guestimate would be 1/3 to 1/2 of that (300-500l/hour) once all the pipes/screen are on, so take that into account too (I didn't on my first scrubber and suffered a little due to lack of flow over the screen).

P.S.
Going over with lights and flow by a little won't hurt, e.g. a 20-22W bulb or next size up pump would help

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has a sump in its back, like a Red sea max

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Pics would help. Need to know if the sump really is "below" the main tank, or if it's just a section "behind" the tank.

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_If I use a the benefit of cooling the tank with the ATS, I'll need to add RO water to compensate, and if there is less water changes I need to add Ca+Mg, so can I compensate with direct TAP water ran through a carbon filter (to remove chlorine and other stuff) to avoid using kalk water ?

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Well the kalk top-off would fix the Ca and Mg, and the top off, and the pH. That's what I do. Using Tap would be an experiment; since your tank is new, you could try it and see if anything new dies. One problem would be chloramines if you have them; I don't thing carbon removes them (I think you need a DI), and I'm not sure airing out the water will remove them either, like it does with chlorine. Would be a good question for a water expert.

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What screen size should I use to have the best system ,and flowrate ?

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This will depend on your tank layout. If your "sump" is not a real sump, you'll need a scrubber like one of these:

http://www.radio-media.com/fish/SumplessFeed.jpg


http://www.radio-media.com/fish/NanoHorizontal.jpg

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the tank is empty for the moment and it will be started withing the next weeks, so I understood I can start straight with an ATS rather than Skimmer and floss, correct ?

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Yes

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15 Watts of light is more than enough

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That's fine for the small screen. If single-sided, you'll want about 50 square inches (313 sq cm). That would be 5 X 10. But like Worley said, more light is better.

HI, tnx for the replys.


The "what I call sump" is on the same level like the RSM.
And the first picture shows exactly what I have in mind.
For the screen I'm going with 10x12 times 2, so I can alternate the harvesting, and they will bet lit on one side only.
That will be a new experiment for me to run skimmer-less....

And I'm going to use RO water finally, to remove the nasty stuff, and the contents of tap water do fluctuate over timle.



PS: Is there any other tanks with similar setup that started w/o skimmer straight with ATS ?

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Originally Posted by Jay1st

PS: Is there any other tanks with similar setup that started w/o skimmer straight with ATS ?

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Yes, I started my 6'x2'x2' without skimmer, I've still not finished my new algae scrubber yet, but the one from my old 3x2x2 is running on it and has kept it going (with a little algae on the glass, but 0 amonia/nitrite and very low nitrate) for 3 months and that's with a mixed fish/coral (hard and soft) reef.

Many many many. Several on here, and hundreds across the different forums, if you want to take the time to find them.

I'll never use a skimmer. On my new design I'll be basing it on a TScrubber. I don't see a natural analog to a mechanical skimmer so it must be possible to run a system without one. At least that's my philosophy. :mrgreen: .

Marine tanks have been around a long time before skimmers were in use. They certainly helped, but the algae scrubber does a much better job in my tank. They work in completely different ways, but the scrubbers work a lot better if correctly designed/built and maintained.

OK, tnx.

need to look deeper in the net....

And I'll update with pictures of my setup as soon as I'll start building it. (busy with job right now).

Hi folks,


Is there any problem with oversinzing the scrubber ?

Like 4 times more than needed ? (I have to travel quite often for my job)

And I am planning to use a Lumen##c type reflector : plan PDF

I'm not 100% sure that having an oversized scrubber means that you can leave it longer, Santamonica any comments on this?
There's nothing wrong with building one that has 4 times the area, 4 times the flow and lighting of one that is required for your tank, but not sure it will mean that you can leave it longer than a week between cleans.

The proven answer is: No; you can't leave it more than a week, no matter how big. But the experimental answer is: Not sure.

Bigger size/flow/lighting means better filtering, for sure. But the limitation is pods. Pods start gaining ground at 7 days, and really start mowing down the algae at 14 days. At some point, they mow it down as fast as it grows, and thus, your filtering stops. The only question is, how long this takes. 7 days is proven to not be a problem. 14 days is questionable. 21 days is definately a problem. Forget 28 days.

There is a way to do it, but it is complex/expensive, and has never been tested: Build an automated FW rinse, that turns the SW flow off once a day, and flushes the screen with RODI for a few minutes, and then switches back to regular SW flow. This will fix the pods problem entirely. Then, the next limitation you will run into is total algae growth, but that can be spread out (like you said) by increasing the total screen area/flow/lighting. Four times the area will keep the growth 1/4 of the thickness that it would have been, thus keeping the underlying areas from being shaded and dying.

Now that is a product that is ripe for manufacture: An electronically controlled SW + FW valve system, ready to use.

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There is a way to do it, but it is complex/expensive, and has never been tested: Build an automated FW rinse, that turns the SW flow off once a day, and flushes the screen with RODI for a few minutes,

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That is easy to build :

I am making my own ATO (AVR controller)), just need to cut the ATS feeding pump and do the top-off on the algae screen.


And I can get a friend to come home and clean the screen once a week or every 2 weeks.


Is there any advantage to have the light coming from the "underside" rather than the "outside" of the screen ?

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Originally Posted by Jay1st

And I can get a friend to come home and clean the screen once a week or every 2 weeks.

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That's all you need really then maybe every 10 days if you can't get every week when you're not there.

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Originally Posted by Jay1st

Is there any advantage to have the light coming from the "underside" rather than the "outside" of the screen ?

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How do you mean? most ATS are lit from both sides with the screen vertical, unless you're doing a diagonal design? You want as much light as possible, so the closer you can get the lights (and still cover the screen evenly) the better.

The other pod buster would be to have the screen run in the cyclical manner. Have the water flood it then all run off then flood it, etc, etc. The pods would not be able to operate as they are pinned down when no water is there. The screen might be somewhat less effective but if it is large anyway...

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How do you mean? most ATS are lit from both sides with the screen vertical, unless you're doing a diagonal design? You want as much light as possible, so the closer you can get the lights (and still cover the screen evenly) the better.

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What I mean is like your light screen :

http://www.radio-media.com/fish/Ligh...Advantages.jpg

The light comes from underneath, not from outside , so the algae grows from outside to inside (???)
That design really puzzles me about the way the algae is growing :mrgreen:

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The other pod buster would be to have the screen run in the cyclical manner. Have the water flood it then all run off then flood it, etc, etc. The pods would not be able to operate as they are pinned down when no water is there. The screen might be somewhat less effective but if it is large anyway..

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That is the original ATS design, but what about a cylinder (like a penguin filter) but with algae growing on it ?

This was one of SantaMonica's next gen designs, I think the issue with this was getting enough light in the screen, e.g. with LEDs, and not restricting the light too much. I don't think there's been any successful (in that they grow anywhere near the amount of scrubbers with compact fluorescent bulbs) ATS made with this design yet, am I right SantaMonica?
The only really well tested design at the moment is with the screen standing vertical and light with several compact fluorescent bulbs either side.

I am wondering if I should stop pumping to the AS during feeding, or if I leave the pump running ?
As I am planning to stop the circulation pumps (2x6025).......

No, keep the pump going 24x7 to feed the ATS
Why are you stopping the circulation pumps?

CFL's are still the proven way to go. Everything else is experimental.

You don't need to turn your scrubber off during feeding. Unlike a skimmer, a scrubber does not remove any of the food.

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You don't need to turn your scrubber off during feeding. Unlike a skimmer, a scrubber does not remove any of the food.

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Ok, ,that's a good thing.


Btw, I have a 70W MH, used it on my old FW tank, at had massive growths of algae on the glass inside the tank.
It's a 5200K , it should be more than enough for a scrubber, or maybe too much ?

Should be ok, within 4-5 inches.