New scrubber for my system, last hope

I have a 380l tank with a lot of problems, 1st time i had it running and it was sweet with no algae problems however, i must of had a lot of bad rock from my lfs as i had a huge invasion of crabs.
After months of battling with the crabs i decided to break the tank down and start again so i pulled the rock out and repeatedly jet washed it in the garden with tap water, little did i know about my 230ppm tap water. I let the rock dry and left it in the garden for weeks in all elements.
I put the tank back together Dec 13, i have had nothing but problems with every algae going, at present i have a red fluffy algae which spreads fast.
I check my parameter almost daily, my no3 and po4 are at zero which i ignore as i have algae.
So i have decided to try a scrubber as this is probably the only thing i have not tried.
I understand(or thought i did)that i need 1 sq inch per gallon of water so i am going with 10sq inch, i will illuminate both sides with a 45watt warm cfl on each side i also plan on pushing this with a 1200lph pump.
As i keep reading your website i see that your baseline figures change somewhat?
What do you think to my figures.
Attachment 5488
the scrubber needs to be rotated 90degree.

Regards

Vinchud

Welcome from UK.

Having killed the live rock, it will be loaded with phosphate, that is now coming out. It is probably 100 pounds of rock, which would be about putting an equivalent of about 1 cube a day of phosphate into the water. And you are probably feeding about 2 cubes. With this in mind:

Scrubbers are sized according to feeding. Nutrients "in" (feeding) must equal nutrients "out" (scrubber growth), no matter how many gallons or liters you have. So...

An example VERTICAL upflow or waterfall screen size is 3 X 4 inches = 12 square inches of screen (7.5 X 10 cm = 75 sq cm) with a total of 12 real watts (not equivalent) of fluorescent light for 18 hours a day. If all 12 watts are on one side, it is a 1-sided screen. If 6 watts are on each side, it is a 2-sided screen, but the total is still 12 watts for 18 hours a day. This screen size and wattage should be able to handle the following amounts of daily feeding:

1 frozen cube per day (2-sided screen), or
1/2 frozen cube per day (1-sided screen), or
10 pinches of flake food per day (2-sided screen), or
5 pinches of flake food per day (1-sided screen), or
10 square inches (60 sq cm) of nori per day (2-sided screen), or
5 square inches (30 sq cm) of nori per day (1-sided screen), or
0.1 dry ounce (2.8 grams) of pellet food per day (2-sided screen), or
0.05 dry ounce (1.4 grams) of pellet food per day (1-sided screen)

High-wattage technique: Double the wattage, and cut the hours in half (to 9 per day). This will get brown screens to grow green much faster. Thus the example above would be 12 watts on each side, for a total of 24 watts, but for only 9 hours per day. If growth starts to turn YELLOW, then increase the flow, or add iron, or reduce the number of hours. And since the bulbs are operating for 9 hours instead of 18, they will last 6 months instead of 3 months.

HORIZONTAL screens: Multiply the screen size by 4, and the wattage by 1 1/2. Flow is 24 hours, and is at least 35 gph per inch of width of screen [60 lph per cm], EVEN IF one sided or horizontal.

FLOATING SURFACE SCRUBBERS WITH RIBBONS: Screen size is the size of the box (Lenth X Width), and is 2-sided because the ribbons grow in 3D.

LEDs: Use half the wattage as above. 660nm (red) is best. You can mix in a little 450nm (blue) if you want.

Very rough screen made of roughed-up-like-a-cactus plastic canvas, unless floating surface, which would use gravel and strings instead.

Clean algae:

Every 7 to 21 days, or
When it's black, or
When it fills up, or
When algae lets go, or
When nutrients start to rise



And:

What size scrubber do you need?

The basic guidelines for algae scrubbers is based on how much you feed each day: 1 cube a day, 2 cubes a day, etc. However these are just starting points; a lot of your tank filtering is based on your rocks, so their condition plays a part too in what model(s) scrubbers to get or make, as well as what type of feeding you are doing, and what other filters you will be using.

REEF:

1) If you are building a reef tank which is new, meaning that the rocks are coming from the ocean or from a low-nutrient tank, and if you will just be feeding the fish sparingly, and if you DO want to have other filters and water changes, then you can just use the cube-feeding recommended sizes of the scrubbers.

2) If you are building a reef tank which is new as in #1 above, but you DON'T want any other filters or water changes, then double the recommended scrubbing amount in #1. This will supply the corals and small fish with the most amounts of food particles. You don't need to start the tank with all the scrubbers; one is fine for a few months. Add the others later.

3) If you are building a reef tank which is new as in #1 or #2 above, but the rocks are coming from a nutrient-problem tank which had measurable phosphate or hair algae problems, then the rocks will be soaked with phosphate and this will supply more phosphate to your new tanks than the feeding will. So double the recommend scrubbing amount. And if it is a new reef tank with problem rocks AND you don't want other filters or water changes, you would need four times the scrubbing in order to handle the problem rocks and the other filters.

4) If you are adding a scrubber to an existing reef tank, and the tank has no measurable phosphate and no nuisance algae, and if you have other filters and water changes and you DO want to keep them, then you can just use the cube-feeding sizes of the scrubbers.

5) If you are adding a scrubber to an existing reef tank as in #4 above but you DON'T want to continue using the other filters or water changes, then double the scrubber amount recommend in #4.

6) If you are adding a scrubber to an existing reef tank that has measurable phosphate and green hair nuisance algae on the rocks, and you DO want to continue using other filters and water changes, then you can just use the recommended cube-feeding sizes of the scrubbers. Use stronger light if possible because the higher phosphate in the water needs brighter light to make the scrubber grow green. And if you double the amount of scrubbing (two scrubbers instead of one), the problems will clear up twice as fast because there will be twice the amount of algae absorbing the nutrients out of the water.

7) If you are adding a scrubber to an existing reef tank that has measurable phosphate and green hair nuisance algae on the rocks as in #6 above, and you DON'T want to continue using other filters and water changes, then double the amount of scrubbing recommended in #6.

8) If you are adding a scrubber to an existing reef tank that has NO measurable phosphate, but has LOTS of green hair nuisance algae on the rocks, then you need the strongest lights possible (for your scrubber size) because the rocks are already full of phosphate, and the algae on the rocks is absorbing this phosphate, meaning you need the strongest scrubbing possible in order to out-compete the algae on the rocks. This is the hardest situation to fix, so you should use as much scrubbing as possible with the strongest light available (for the scrubber size), and use as many other filters and water changes as possible too, until the algae on the rocks turns yellow and lets go. At this point coralline will start to cover the rocks, and you could consider selling some of the extra scrubbers, or removing the other filters or water changes.

Hi there Mr Monica and thank you for the welcome....
okay so i am a little confused, what i have done is used a screen that is 10inch x 8 inch, i illuminate with a 45watt real watt(225watt equiv) each side, i have a 1200ltr hour pump at present with a head of 1 foot. i feed my fish probably 1 cube a day or there abouts. The light is switched on 18hrs a day only been on 24hrs.
Whats your thoughts on this
I also added a second reactor with rowaphos in it.
I change 15 to 18ltr of water every second day.
Takeing the bull by the horns so to speak.
Attachment 5490
i have some cheapo tin lids reflecting the light now but that still needs improving.

You must use reflectors, or you are losing 3/4 of the light.

yes i can see how alot of the light is wasted. any ideas for reflectors?

Utility lights are made to reflect sideways like yours. Or a soda can cut open. There are several examples here if you search around.

Howdy Mr Monica,
Attachment 5535Attachment 5536Attachment 5537
Its been a while and the scrubber has made a difference i seem to be harvesting a dark brown slimey type algea but the md is looking great until four days ago. My question is this,
Would and can a scrubber create a bacterial bloom as my tank has gone milky to a point you carnt realy see the back wall very similar to a kalk overdose. Im not to worried as this will burn itself out.
My Rock are starting to have more green appear on them aswell, agin not worried.
Put some reflectors on the scrubber and all is working
The medium i bought for the algea to grow on has very small holes, i roughed it up real good but is this detrimental in the long run
Thanks

Ok now the screen in burning. Can you increase flow, and add iron to the water?

Reduce lighting time to 10 hours. And move the light back 10 cm on each side if you can.

I can buy a new pump. The one i am using is 1200lph supposedly so what would you recommend?
I feed Nori once every few days, i can increase to everyday. (That's got iron in right?)
I Have moved the lights back to 10cm bulb to screen. I could squeeze another two making 12cm total
Attachment 5538
I have reduce lighting hours to Ten hours per day.

Yes move them back as far as possible until growth starts.

Your pump should be good for a screen about 25 cm wide.

Let's see how it looks in 10 days.

Mr Monica,
I have purchased a newjet pump that is capable of 2300lph as i was not getting a full curtain of water falling from my scrubber.
I am starting to get concerned about this bacterial bloom that is happening right now
Have you had or ever come across a scrubber that has caused a bloom.
Attachment 5541Attachment 5542
My concern is i have burnt the algae on the medium.
Its going to be one of two things.
1st. I raised my mg in the past to combat a algae problem i had, it ran up to 1500. I decided to let it drift down to 1400 therefore i stopped my doser. When my mg got to 1380 i decided to switch it back on and start dosing. All was good for a few days then the milky look to my tank appeared.
I then remembered that my mg had been sitting in a flask for some time so i looked at my spreadsheet and i had it sitting there for eight weeks.
So it could be the anerobic bacteria in my mg that started it off.
Or it could be the algae scrubber as both was put on my tank around the same time.
These are the only things that have changed.

It's just the nutrients coming out of the rock, after you killed the rock. You should never dry out rock or spray it or put bleach on it. Now you have to wait for all the dead animals inside it to rot away. Also don't move the rock in your tank, or you will kill the periphyton and cause more delays.

Anyway, the bloom is not hurting anything; actually it's absorbing nutrients, so leave it alone. Just get your scrubber growing, and don't change anything else for 3 months.

cool, thanks for the reply

Hello Mr Monica
I know it has not been ten days but i thought i would give you an update,
The bacterial bloom has cleared and the tank is looking better than it has ever looked.
The scrubber has algae on it some green which the camera wont pick up but only a few bits of green, I dont seem to be getting a linear growth over the scrubber which suggest to me the pump is not strong enough, i get better growth only on some parts of the screen.
Attachment 5548
Should i clean the screen?
Can i change the pump for a newjet 2700 varable pump as ive only got a nj1200 at present?
How do i clean the screen as i have been doing it with a credit card. Should i just swill under tap water?
My params are all still great, have noticed a couple of little bits of hair algea but just tiny

Your slot is probably un-even, cause erratic flow, and also the pump is low flow too.

That screen is huge for the amount of rock you have, although I understand that you want to capture all the light from those reflectors.

Since it is all built and running, just run it the way it is and let's see how it goes.

Don't clean for another 7 days. Then post a pic.

see you in seven days
Thank you again........

Eziiiiii Mr Monica
So its been six days lol, I needed to do some work on the scrubber. The water flow slowed to nothing so out with it, i didnt clean the screen but took the chance to take a few pics.
I have green growth which looks like bubble algae and i found some bubble algae in the DT.
Ive changed the pump and increased the flow considerably. so much it went all over the kitchen.
Attachment 5561Attachment 5562Attachment 5563Attachment 5564Attachment 5565
What shall i do know
Thanks

Nothing will happen in your display until your scrubber has been growing thick for many weeks.

What side of the screen does the water come in?

the nearest side on the picture so if you look at the first picture the pump would be closest to you.
I have a realy good curtain of water right now and some spitting so now i need to do some sort of perspex box over the top of it.
Am i right in thinking when the algae scrubber is growing thick that the more flow the more phos removal.
Also when can i remove my skimmer. 3 months plus
Thanks

No, more flow does not remove more phosphate. More growth is what removes more phosphate.

You can remove your skimmer any time, since it does not remove any nitrate or phosphate at all. But you might as well wait until your nutrients start coming down.

When should i clean the screen?

Needs to grow 10 days first. Has not started yet.

Hi Mr Monica,
its been another week and was wondering about my screen and if it need cleaning yet?
I was getting some spraying from the screen so decided to clean the water slot and took oppatunity to take some pics of the screen.
Attachment 5568Attachment 5569Attachment 5570

Yes clean the dark stuff off. Leave some of the green on.

cool will it be a credit card scrape or should i just rub it off under the tap?

Under the tap, otherwise the dark stuff will fall into your water.

i see what you mean about the dark stuff came strait off under the tap gave a gentle rub with thumb to reveal 4 green blobs, cya in another ten.
Thanks

Hi been a while, ive been leaving my scrubber for seven to ten days at a time and im starting to get green growth so i just wash under the tap and give a gentle rub
What you think
Shall i just carry on with 12 hours ight and light scrubbing
Attachment 5595Attachment 5596Attachment 5597

I think more flow would be the next improvement; some areas look cut off.

Okay, i can turn the pump up a bit its 2700lph.
Thanks

Hi Mr Monica, its been awhile as i took on board what you said and i thought i would allow the screen to mature for some time as to stop asking such frequent questions.
The Flow was turned up to max and gentle credit card rubbing once a week .
The algae growth was green and still is but far less as you can see in the attached pics ive got some real hard stuck on dark stuff that dont want to come off so ive left it on
The hard stuff is spreading slowly.
I am worried this hard stuff is not exporting what i needs to?
before scape and after
Attachment 5699Attachment 5700Attachment 5701
Thanks

You need to scrape all of it off. Use a metal scraper if you need to.

okay will do thanks

I read that you can use one of those plastic kitchen scrapers like for scraping pans. Those are much stiffer than a credit card.