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  1. When you say phosphates are zero, what you really...

    When you say phosphates are zero, what you really mean is inorganic phosphate is zero. Hobby testing kits don't analyze the organic P in the tank. Inorganic P can be consumed so quickly that you...
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    Thinking out loud here...if pH is high enough to...

    Thinking out loud here...if pH is high enough to precipitate P out of solution, it would then probably bind to open sites within the substrate (rock or sand). As long as pH remains high enough (I...
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    Yes and no. Simple mass balance would provide us...

    Yes and no. Simple mass balance would provide us with a net change in P during a set time interval. But it does not take into consideration the P that is being shed by the algae during that time...
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    Here is another Adey article, from 2011. I have...

    Here is another Adey article, from 2011. I have access to most journals via my NYU proxy.:

    Algal Turf Scrubbing: Cleaning Surface Waters with Solar Energy while Producing a Biofuel
    Adey, Walter...
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    The first link is an abstract only, but it...

    The first link is an abstract only, but it demonstrates that eutrophic algae exist right at inflow, replaced by oligotrophic species downstream. Nothing surprising. This shows how the type of...
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    Waste management: big difference I think...do...

    Waste management: big difference I think...do they recirculate the effluent back to the the source of the runoff? I don't think they do. That would set up a super microbial-algal loop. That is the...
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    I think on a screen it wouldn't matter because...

    I think on a screen it wouldn't matter because there is no calcium source on it. I think the breakdown of calcium-phosphate bonds happens in proximity of the acid source. This would impact algae...
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    Also I have seen it mentioned that the ATS is...

    Also I have seen it mentioned that the ATS is very good at physically trapping detritus. But this potential trapping, and phosphate clinging, are somewhat negated by the fact these particles are...
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    "Algal growth, ordinarily phosphorus limited,...

    "Algal growth, ordinarily phosphorus limited, depends inversely on bacterial phosphorus utilization and growth. We envision phytoplankton and bacterioplankton dynamics as being ...
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    You could test water incoming the scrubber, and...

    You could test water incoming the scrubber, and outgoing for comparison. Also this should be tested during the ATS light cycle and day cycle separately.

    And what I'm not sure of either is what...
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    I don't think it's an over-generalization to...

    I don't think it's an over-generalization to state that most reefers do not test for organic phosphates. That issue can be settled easily with a simple poll. I doubt there are too many people who...
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    Just like anything else in this hobby, there will...

    Just like anything else in this hobby, there will be success stories using every different method of filtration. There will also be failures. What we really need is documentation showing which...
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    Your testing kits only measure the Inorganic Pi,...

    Your testing kits only measure the Inorganic Pi, not the dissolved organic portion, or Po. Pi can be used so rapidly as soon as it is created that even a reading of 0 can be misguided. Po can only...
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    Cool!

    Cool!
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    The authors calculated that during the week of...

    The authors calculated that during the week of skimmate collection, they added 42 mg of P from their food source. The skimmer pulled 24 mg. That is almost 60% of the input. I think that is very...
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    Thank you for the reply. This is what I'm...

    Thank you for the reply. This is what I'm looking for. I want real world experiences, from someone who understands the processes and cycles going on.

    I think that I represented certain facts...
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    Correct. TOC = Total Organic CARBON...I am more...

    Correct. TOC = Total Organic CARBON...I am more concerned about phosphorus than carbon. The same authors in the study you cited, followed up with a new article where they did an elemental analysis:...
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    All the hobbyist test kits only detect Pi, so we...

    All the hobbyist test kits only detect Pi, so we can't know how much Po there is. I wish there was a way to get this info, to me it is more valuable than knowing the Pi.



    Ocean is a special...
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    Do you mean this?:...

    Do you mean this?: phosphate-levels-increase-growth-rate-in-acropora-muricata
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    Do you mean with testing? Well in the...

    Do you mean with testing?


    Well in the ocean, this is not the case. But in our aquariums, this could be more or less true.



    pH has to drop into the 7's for this to happen.
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    I don't quite understand what you're getting at....

    I don't quite understand what you're getting at.



    Not necessarily, organic P can settle as detritus or become locked up in calcium.



    Instead of looking to be proven wrong, how about...
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    Yes my analogies were a little misguided. As...

    Yes my analogies were a little misguided. As Garf pointed out, those studies compared algae Po excretion to bacterial biomass, NOT to algae biomass. But the revolving door analogy I think is still...
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    Very well said, thank you!

    Very well said, thank you!
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    Actually you may be onto something here!...let me...

    Actually you may be onto something here!...let me take a closer look. And to make matters more confusing, it is actually the bacterial biomass that it is being compared to

    EDIT: That was a good...
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    Please see the post above I just made to Garf. ...

    Please see the post above I just made to Garf.



    I have tried just as hard as you guys to find flaws, but I can't really find any. Oh the irony. I was on the other end of this "battle" not too...
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    Right, it is 8% of P biomass. Biological...

    Right, it is 8% of P biomass.

    Biological processes are not usually linear, they are circular. I don't know how else to explain it. See Liebig's Law, and my other examples earlier. Liebig's Law...
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    I have dripped, very little (

    I have dripped, very little (<1 tsp per 2 gal top-off) and I add acetic acid. But even when I don't add kalk for 2 weeks, pH doesn't drop. I even recalibrated my pH probe. Inhabitants seem healthy...
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    It's like a "revolving door". As an adult you...

    It's like a "revolving door". As an adult you eat many pounds of food per week, much of it is excreted, you did not gain much mass during that week. Algae takes in lots of P, but also lets a lot...
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    I provided some evidence discussing the phosphate...

    I provided some evidence discussing the phosphate cycle. There are many variables, things we don't understand. What cannot be argued is that algae grow to suit their nutrient level. The mere fact...
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    Happened to me too. Once your neurons settle in,...

    Happened to me too. Once your neurons settle in, it will get better.
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    I know. No worries, even if someone does get...

    I know. No worries, even if someone does get upset. I understand.




    When I mentioned trending to alkalinity, I meant that pH goes up. I did not mean the dKh/ alk. In my own ATS tank, I...
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    I really am not trying to prove anything, this is...

    I really am not trying to prove anything, this is not about starting or winning an argument. My only vested interest, as with everyone else, is to come up with strategies to make our tanks beautiful...
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    A functional DSB with good circulation and...

    A functional DSB with good circulation and movement of pore volume should in theory work very well. Also, depending on the size of the DSB and other export methods being used, a DSB could be sinking...
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    I have also seen mention of the thought that a...

    I have also seen mention of the thought that a waterfall scrubber is nothing more than an efficient detritus trap, fostering an environment for nutrient collection and algae growth. Like a fancy...
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    Yes, calcium is very efficient at doing this. I...

    Yes, calcium is very efficient at doing this. I think that's sort of the idea behind a remote DSB - it acts as a phosphate sink, except that it is hard to get detritus to accumulate in a remote...
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    Link to original work: The Oceanic Phosphorus...

    Link to original work: The Oceanic Phosphorus Cycle

    Some excerpts below:



    I realize this is an ocean model and does not translate directly to our tanks, but this is important nonetheless. ...
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    Yes it does, for the reasons already mentioned. ...

    Yes it does, for the reasons already mentioned. All this extra P has to go somewhere. My point is that we have to better understand this process, so that we can avoid problems with our tanks. A...
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    Let's assume there is a net P export every week...

    Let's assume there is a net P export every week when you harvest algae. Let's also assume that you are feeding about the same amount each week. Why isn't the algae shrinking each week then? The P...
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    Maybe, maybe not :confused: The moment the...

    Maybe, maybe not :confused:



    The moment the algae is harvested, yes technically there is P being thrown out. But from the time that growth started from a freshly harvested screen, for that...
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    Garf said, you cannot remove P from the system...

    Garf said, you cannot remove P from the system and have the same amount left.

    Technically that is correct. The instant that algae is flushed down the toilet, there is some P that is bound within...
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    Hanna and other kits are only measuring inorganic...

    Hanna and other kits are only measuring inorganic phosphate, which is consumed so quickly when it is available that testing kits are not really accurate. There is no good way for hobbyists to...
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    Scrubbers DO NOT export Phosphorus

    Now that I have your attention :-)

    Full disclosure - I have an ATS, I have posted my build in this forum, and I have contributed to the knowledge base here. This thread is not about bashing any...
  43. Sticky: What?

    Huh????

    Read this article more carefully please. "our observations indicate that the important reef building species of the Caribbean genus Montastraea are directly stressed by neighbouring turf...
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    My ATS

    http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?2400-The-scrubber-is-now-active

    It is not a DIY LED, it is a premade UFO-style LED from eBay, but there are pictures and details. I don't know how...
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    Scrubber Update 01/19/2013

    Algae scrubber is doing nicely. This time I waited about 10 days to allow the growth to get nice and thick. You can see the mounding areas. I am also bumping up the lights to 8.5 hrs. DT algae is...
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    It's the same distance as in the photo except...

    It's the same distance as in the photo except with 2 diffuser screens, it is very bright. There is enough light to keep macroalgae in the sump below growing well even though the light is not even...
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    2nd Harvest

    5 days since cleaning the screen, it is ready for another trim. This time around, growth was much thicker and more difficult to scrape. Still a nice, bright green color. GHA in the display tank is...
  48. Humans don't see violets that well so they appear...

    Humans don't see violets that well so they appear less intense than blue, but as far as LEDs, violets typically have a higher forward voltage and need to run on lower amps than blues because of heat...
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    Algae harvest

    4 days ago I cleaned the screen with a knife, strands of hair algae came off pretty easily. I then increased the lighting from 5 to 7 hours. 4 days later, the screen is full of algae again. Here...
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    FWIW, I just started a new tank with a scrubber...

    FWIW, I just started a new tank with a scrubber about a month ago. I have a very nice, bright green algal growth on the scrubber. I only feed Kent phytoplankton, decapsulated Artemia eggs, and...
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