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Thread: SPS growth and scrubbing

  1. #21
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    Re: SPS growth and scrubbing

    I don't know what he's basing that on. This study that SM linked n a thread a few months back shows that skimmers very efficiently strip bacteria levels right down to about 63% of peak. Check out Figures 19 and on. The article is mainly about carbon dosing and it's effect on bacterial populations, then they start to dig into the independent effect of skimmers on bacterial populations, basically to see how much the skimmer is 'fighting' the carbon dosing induced bacterial colony growth.

    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature

    And as far as O2 exchange goes, you can only affect the O2 & CO2 levels in your tank according to what your ambient air is like, so there is a fundamental limit involved. This was also discussed recently in another thread, I'll try to find it and link back to it. The effect of water falling across a vertical scrubber screen in ambient air does a plenty good job of exchanging air.

  2. #22
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    Re: SPS growth and scrubbing

    He may have been thinking about oxygen levels in aquariums compared to oceans: Aquariums are normally less, which is why you use aerators if you don't have open sumps and/or skimmers. And more oxygen will help produce more of everything including aerobic bacteria in a DSB. But the skimmer does remove the bacteria that is in the water column, and probably more than 60 percent since bacteria are larger than DOC. DOC are considered less than 0.5 microns or so, and bacteria are considered particles larger than 1.0 microns. But more important is that he did not know at the time that you would have a scrubber that would bring the oxygen up to saturation levels. So it's really moot.

    As for skimmed pastel tanks, yes, you can still grow sps if you feed enough to offset what the skimmer removes. If they feed their fish enough, they will eventually get enough waste particles to feed the sps. But then, what is going to remove phosphates? Now you have to add a phosphate remover. And probably a nitrate remover. And probably waterchanges. And what about metal buildup that in my opinion causes old tank syndrome? They have nothing for that at all, and more waterchanges makes it worse. And, they can't keep NPS at all, none (photo gorgs are not NPS). And what about mandarins, anthias, skooters, pipefish and tubeworms? All are easily kept, without target feeding, in a scrubber tank. And, even though their sps will grow, growth rate is limited; in the wild, sps will grow 12" per year because of all the food.

    The idea of a scrubber is that you can do more with less. A scrubber tank can keep all types of corals and inverts at very high growth rates, with just one filter and no other maintenance.

  3. #23

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    Re: SPS growth and scrubbing

    Thank you for clearing that out. Now I have a "perfect" example tank then. Once my current sps starts showing signs of health, I'll dump in lots and lots of frags and we can see how much SPS can grow.

    I still wonder about the lights though, and honestly, I have seen skimmer tanks with T5 only and "perfect" sps colonies and colors. I should not need more light than a skimmer tank?

  4. #24
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    Re: SPS growth and scrubbing

    Why would you need more light? Natural sun levels would seem to be fine, and I'm sure your setup can do it. But natural levels of feeding are probably 100 to 1000 times how much you have been feeding. Natural reefs get about 1 pound of food per cubic meter, per day. And they have a standing-stock of several pounds (wet) of algae per square meter to do the filtering, and this does not include the phytoplankton in the water column which does even more filtering. So the limitation really is feeding, not lighting (or flow,etc).

    I did have a theory about your tank: The high light in the display, coupled with the algae in the display, kept your nutrients ultra low. This may be why your LPS were suffering too. When nutrition (food particles and DOC) are low, LPS and especially softies ca use nutrients (N and P) absorbed through their soft tissues. This is why they inflate; to bring in the nutrient-rich water. But your tank had no nutrients, and no food particles, and thus all your corals suffered.

    Again this is assuming there is no poison or other basic problem.

  5. #25

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    Re: SPS growth and scrubbing

    Well, we will know soon enough. Where poisons would come from I do not know, and would think of as strange as I did already run carbon aggressively while skimming and doing water changes. It could be poison from algae in the aquarium, but except for that, there is not much that could give off poisons.

    The point of asking about light, is simply that I'm going to change lights since the fans on my units are too noisy, but changing into something that would make my tank even more powerfull a scrubber, and since the lights I have in mind are quite powerfull, I would check in first.

    The lights I got offered are 3x 400w CoralVue HQI with Lumenarc III wide reflectors. (12500 Kelvin ReefLux bulbs)

    If not I will order the Ecoxotic Cannon LED http://reefbuilders.com/2010/07/23/c...tt-blue-white/

    I guess they are both quite powerfull. The last option would be to take out the LEDs all together and put in more T5, but then I loose the shimmer.

  6. #26

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    Re: SPS growth and scrubbing

    Hello!

    Du you have any calcareous algae growing on the glass?

    In my tank i think the calcareous algae is backing of when the tank is low on nutrients. When my tank is low on nutrients first the calcareous algae in my tank will back of, after that my coral seems too suffer.

    As I earlier period had problems with algae, I believe, and remember that when the algae flourished and took up all the food substances in the tank so got my calcareous algae problems first, then the corals

    This is at least how I perceived the conditions in my aquarium in terms of nutrients.

    And have you checked for dinoflaggelates?

    Jnad

  7. #27

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    Re: SPS growth and scrubbing

    Hi Jnad!

    Yes, my calcerous algae on the glass is "dying" from the middle and out actually. It's kinda funny you mention it, since I noticed this a while ago, but did not think much of it. There used to be alot of growth, even in places I didn't want them. Now I'm feeding more, as pr. prescription by Dr. SM, my skimmer is off, and hopefully things will work out.

    The growth on my scrubber (6 days today) is INSANE. I've been peaking, but at the moment, the hairs are probably 40 cm long, hanging down all the way from the top of the slot and down into my bubble trap. Going to be fun harvesting. I also noticed a MAJOR consume in CA/KH, which in term probably points out to food being limiting my growth. The SPS are still dying, hopefully they will stop STN'ing, but it currently looks like they are dying off slowly one by one. I'm not too worried about that thought, as my system was not working. What I'm more interested in is to make the scrubber work so I can grow those corals back in weeks-> months. Hopefully with the decrease in light, increase in feeding and skimmer/GAC offline this will happen. (I got alot of friends with SPS for fragging, but first things needs to settle down.) (And I need to get some of my Angels out).

    What do you think about the LED's vs the HQI?

  8. #28

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    Re: SPS growth and scrubbing

    And as far as O2 exchange goes, you can only affect the O2 & CO2 levels in your tank according to what your ambient air is like, so there is a fundamental limit involved.
    That is not actually correct. Co2 will supersaturate salt water. It can happen in tanks that have been running a long time. When this happens skimmed tanks try to send intake outside or into crawl space. This is often not a bad idea in general as indoor air is polluteed to small extent with smokers etc Air intake scrubbers for CO2 are used as well sometimes. I told a nearby guy to check if his son is smoking in the house when he is not around...

    In planted freshwater tanks CO2 is often introduced into weakly buffered tank to remove carbon dioxide as the nutrient limiting plant growth and oxygen pearling is often seen during mid day.

    On the other hand ATS will stabilize pH reducing CO2 swings from day to night. Aquarist's that track pH can see swing as low as 0.15 pH units or less using reverse daylight lighting and tracking. This would be a selling point to use ATS over currently popular carbon dosing.

  9. #29

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    Re: SPS growth and scrubbing

    Quote Originally Posted by Vannpytt
    Hi Jnad!

    Yes, my calcerous algae on the glass is "dying" from the middle and out actually. It's kinda funny you mention it, since I noticed this a while ago, but did not think much of it. There used to be alot of growth, even in places I didn't want them. Now I'm feeding more, as pr. prescription by Dr. SM, my skimmer is off, and hopefully things will work out.

    The growth on my scrubber (6 days today) is INSANE. I've been peaking, but at the moment, the hairs are probably 40 cm long, hanging down all the way from the top of the slot and down into my bubble trap. Going to be fun harvesting. I also noticed a MAJOR consume in CA/KH, which in term probably points out to food being limiting my growth. The SPS are still dying, hopefully they will stop STN'ing, but it currently looks like they are dying off slowly one by one. I'm not too worried about that thought, as my system was not working. What I'm more interested in is to make the scrubber work so I can grow those corals back in weeks-> months. Hopefully with the decrease in light, increase in feeding and skimmer/GAC offline this will happen. (I got alot of friends with SPS for fragging, but first things needs to settle down.) (And I need to get some of my Angels out).

    What do you think about the LED's vs the HQI?
    Hello!

    I have found that in my tank so are my calcareous algae and coral Xenia very good to use as the state parameters of the tank.

    When it comes to lighting, I have not much experience with this, but if I acquire a new light now, I would be skeptical of LED lighting as these are still early in development. And since LED lighting is on a steep development curve will be to buy LED lighting is now the same as buying flat screen TV or computer: what you buy today is old tomorrow.

    I have not used lead as this is the only way I would resonate if I were to purchase new lighting for my aquarium.

    But on the other hand, I have some experience with Angel fish, if you see they pick some of your corals so this is only a fraction of the actual picking that takes place within 24 hours. This takes corals clearly very negative, and if this is a continuing situation over a long time, the corals will remain closed and eventually die.

    jnad

  10. #30
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    Re: SPS growth and scrubbing

    Dying of coralline on the glass is a big indicator. If coralline can't add mass, then stony corals probably can't either, since both of them are calcium carbonate. Normally I'd say the P is high, but you say it's zero. If it is low, you only have to clean the glass once a week or so.

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