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Thread: How much flow can your drains handle?

  1. #1

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    How much flow can your drains handle?

    A lot less than you think!!! See the empirical tests in this article.

    http://www.wetwebmedia.com/BulkheadFloRateArt.htm

    Main take away: the standard Megaflow 1" Durso drain will only provide at best 380 GPH of flow, *not* the 600 GPH advertised.

    If you think you have more flow than that, you might want to actually measure your throughput. Your pump may not be putting out what you think it is.

    I've been trying to figure out why my 22" ATS running off my drains seems like it isn't getting enough flow, even though my drains are close to maxed out. It turns out that running at their best rate, the dual 1" Durso drains on my AGA 125 gallon combined will just barely give 35 GPH/inch. In reality, I image that they are running substantially less than max. This also means that my Mag 12 return pump is putting out a lot less flow than I thought. I did have to dial it back when the system was new, but over time I've opened it up. I need to take some time this weekend to clean the pump and actually measure the flow through the system.

  2. #2
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    Re: How much flow can your drains handle?

    Well I have 25mm (external) piping (same as one inch) and am getting slightly over 2000 litres per hour through it, about 450 gallons (imperial) or 540 gallons (US) (calculated by filling a 2 litre jug from the sump return pipe which takes a tad under 3.5 seconds)

    It could probably handle a little bit more, but not a lot.

  3. #3

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    Re: How much flow can your drains handle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumpy Pumpy
    Well I have 25mm (external) piping (same as one inch) and am getting slightly over 2000 litres per hour through it, about 450 gallons (imperial) or 540 gallons (US) (calculated by filling a 2 litre jug from the sump return pipe which takes a tad under 3.5 seconds)

    It could probably handle a little bit more, but not a lot.
    Timing such a small amount so fast and extrapolating is probably fairly error prone. It would be much more accurate to capture 30-60 seconds worth of flow and extrapolate from there.

    Also, while your mileage may vary based on your setup, these guys tested the exact overflow/drain I'm using, and their results jive with my observations. I'll find out for sure this weekend when I actually measure mine. The Megaflow system is probably the most common overflow/drain system on tanks in the US, so their findings are likely relevant to a good number of people.

  4. #4

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    Re: How much flow can your drains handle?

    I changed my durso drains over to Bean Animal/Calfo drains and I more then doubled my flow. 1" return pipe using Durso 120GPH. same overflow changed to a Bean Animal system 257 GPH. This is using a Mag3, which has a with my 5" pump height should be 250 GPH.

    I just received a mag 9.5 hoping to get my flow up to the 600 range.

    Kent

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    Re: How much flow can your drains handle?

    Quote Originally Posted by MorganAtlanta
    Timing such a small amount so fast and extrapolating is probably fairly error prone. It would be much more accurate to capture 30-60 seconds worth of flow and extrapolate from there.

    True enough, but we did it 10 times and took an average so it's probably reasonably fair.

  6. #6

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    Re: How much flow can your drains handle?

    Well, I didn't get to measure my drain capacity because my Mag 12 pump will only put out 660 GPH (US) with the plumbing I've got. That is substantially less than I would have thought, and it also explains why my screen seems more yellow than it should be. I've got to rework the return plumbing to remove some friction or go with a bigger pump.

    Here's my measurement method-
    I turned off the pump and let the tank drain down to the lip of the overflow. I then siphoned off about 8.2 gallons from the tank into a container. I turned the pump back on and started timing. I poured the water from the container back into the sump as the pump pushed the water up to the display. I stopped the timer when the water in the display reached to lip of the overflow. The results were:
    Dirty pump with 8 months build up- 8.2 gallons in 60 seconds = about 500 GPH
    Clean pump- 8.2 gallons is 45 seconds = about 660 GPH

    Looks like a cleaning was way past due, but I really need almost 800 GPH.

  7. #7
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    Re: How much flow can your drains handle?

    From my summary viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1432

    Available Flow

    In any case, you need to measure the flow rate. Do this step. It is critical. Do not, I repeat, do not calculate the flow rate based on pump curves and head-feet of pressure. This may sound like a total pain in the behind, but just trust me on this one. Would you rather go through all the effort of building a scrubber, only to have problems and find out that you didn't have as much flow as you thought you did? Believe me, I've been there.

    If you've been reading this thread, you will see that at some point I started making a big deal about this. The reason is that it is a big deal and I think many people don't realize that their pump does not pump at the rated flow, and in the majority of cases, it doesn't come close to the flow calculated by using a standard head-foot calculator program or table. So I have chosen to make it the #1 priority for scrubber design, hands down. You have to know your actual flow.

    For a drain fed scrubber, fill a pitcher with the water entering the sump. You will probably need to rig up a temporary pipe or routing configuration so that you can fill the container. For a pump-fed scrubber, set up the pump in a sink filled with water to the same level as your pump will be submerged, and connect the tubing required to reach the height of the connection to the horizontal slot tube, so that you mimic as best as possible the actual conditions. Backpressure created by the slot/screen is negligible unless your flow rate significantly exceeds 35 GPH per inch of slot length.

    Now that you've done all this, fill the container and record the time it takes to fill it. Do this at least a dozen times. The way I do this is by using a recording device, like a digital voice recorder, and just calling out "Go" and "Stop", then afterward, playing it back and using a stopwatch to get the time intervals. You could also have someone else run the stopwatch and write down the times. Average out the times and then figure out how many gallons per hour of flow you are actually getting. If you have multiple drains, measure and extrapolate GPH for each individually, and then add together.

    For instance, if you are using a 1/2 gallon pitcher, and it takes 4.5 seconds to fill it, then you would have (0.5 gallons / 4.5 seconds) x (3600 seconds / 1 hour) which would be 400 GPH.

    Don't be surprised if you have a lot less flow from your pump than you thought you had. I had less than 1/2 of what I thought it was. Head-feet calculations are usually way off, because most people don't use big enough return hose or have other restrictions in the plumbing. Some of it is inherent to reef-ready aquarium design (1" drain, 3/4" return, Danner Mag-Drive 9.5 and larger pumps need 1.5" return, see a problem?). So don't feel bad. A lot of people are in your situation, but they just don't know it.

    Start with a clean pump. If your pump is not clean, soak it in vinegar for 15 minutes and scrub it good. After running a scrubber for about 4-5 months, your pump flow will drop about 15%, and by 6 months, it will have dropped by 25%, so you want to know your best-case flow and build around that. It's a lot easier to start with a throttled-back clean pump and open it a little when the flow rate decreases. Figure out your system flow rate, multiply by 80%, and that will be a good starting point. But, it's not going to kill you to start at full flow, and end up with a little less over time. You might just want to clean your pump a little more often, say every 3 months. So it's up to you. Just being aware of your system conditions puts you miles ahead.
    As for the capacity of an overflow pipe itself, Bean's calculator comes in handy

    http://www.beananimal.com/articles/hydr ... arist.aspx

    A 1" ID pipe with a 48" straight drop will handle over 2000GPH at full siphon. That's the advantage to a tuned pipe system.

    Return piping will affect flow tremendously. I had a Mag12 with 48" rise and 3/4" ID tubing pushing only 433 GPH with a clean pump. Increase as much of the plumbing as possible to 1.25" ID and that went to 780 GPH, and maxed out the durso (which ended up being a full siphon). I had a lot of plumbing to get to the scrubber, which I feel put additional restriction on the siphon's ability to maintain more flow. As the week went on, the tank water level would rise, so I had to crack the valve closed on the pump to keep the water level in the tank down. If I had a straight shot down and over to the scrubber, it might have been different.

    I did the 1/2 gallon container fill technique, 12-14 times, averaged out the flow. I have done this on several tanks multiple times, and it is a reliable form of measurement, done right.

  8. #8

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    Re: How much flow can your drains handle?

    So for a mag 9.5 its recommended to have minimum 1" pipe for return?...i have bean animal/calfo overflow with 1.5" drain to my algae scrubber

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I896 using Tapatalk

  9. #9
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    Re: How much flow can your drains handle?

    If you look on the danner website tech sheet, I think they recommend 1.5" return piping

  10. #10

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    Re: How much flow can your drains handle?

    The problem is the standard "megaflow" system has a 1" bulkhead for a drain and a 3/4" bulkhead for a return, which turns out to be substantially smaller than is needed in reality to get the flow that modern systems typically require. The 3/4" return bulkhead comes with a fitting for 3/4" ID tubing, so the opening is actually less than 3/4".

    My system has the sump in the cabinet about 2.5 feet below the tank and uses 1" pipe from the Mag12 up about 1 foot to a 1" T fitting, then runs two four foot, 3/4" ID, flex hoses across and up to the 3/4" bulkheads at bottom of the tank. That's a pretty standard setup, and it only gives 660 GPH with a clean Mag12 pump.

    Upsizing the plumbing is a challenge because I'm limited by the pre-drilled bulkheads and by the fact that the tank is pushed up against a wall. Running the 1" dursos at full siphon is without an emergency relief drain is dangerous because any blockage might cause the tank to overflow. I wouldn't run them at full siphon without an emergency relief drain, and that only available if I bring the return over the back instead of using the 3/4" bulkheads. I might have to knock a hole in the drywall in order to bring the return up over the back.

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