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Thread: film algae on glass ,,again..

  1. #81
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    Re: film algae on glass ,,again..

    I feed em like crazy!!! I love it!!! I would say feed those corals of yours like crazy too!! The algae is made to soak up the bad stuff so let the algae do its job. Push the feed for a coupe weeks and see what your corals look like then. I was so scared to feed mine to much for fear of nutrients building up a killing them but, just the opposite happened. I feed a ton more and the nutrients are lower then ever and they look SO MUCH better. Now I have a lot more time on my hands because of no water changes that the little cleaning of the glass does not bother me. I have found that if I scrap it with a razor it stays cleaner longer. Someone suggested that here and it works. Do as I did, jump off the deep end and feed!!!!
    This sums up the difference of scrubber-tanks vs. skimmer-tanks, when it comes to corals.

    I feed a ton more and the nutrients are lower then ever
    Scrubbers removes nutrients, and leave food in the water.

    I simply cannot get any growth, bar on the scrubber
    Multiply your feeding by 5. You have to at least try it.

    The tank that did not utilise granular activated filtration or a skimmer had doc levels of 5ppm, almost five times natural levels.
    You mean the one that was set up for the experiment, and which was given no time for the bacteria/microbes to grow and do their natural filtering/consumption? Reef studies show that the turnover time of bacteria requires about 3 weeks; this means that any increase in doc requires about three weeks before the bacteria/microbes can catch up with it. Just like cycling rocks requires time.

    Santa is denying outright that on reefs excess doc is a major contributor to coral mortality despite all the evidence to the contrary
    DOC did not "cause" anything. Otherwise, there would never have been reefs in the first place. Guess what?... Fat "causes" heart problems. So if you have any "fat" at all, which we do, you and the rest of us are going to start having heart problem tomorrow. Yes tomorrow. It must happen, because fat "causes" heart problems. Wait a minute, you mean there are people with fat who don't have these heart problems? How? The definition is: Fat causes heart problems. Period. And, DOC "causes" coral mortality. So, using your own definition, all corals on all reefs (which all have doc) are all going to start dying tomorrow.

    DOC is food so how can it stay very high for a long period of time?
    Correct; it can't. That's why people dose it.

    DOC's in the ocean have been measured in some areas of reef up to almost 5ppm
    More than that. Here is one study; there are many others:

    Online photochemical oxidation and flow injection conductivity determination of Dissolved Organic Carbon [DOC] in estuarine and coastal waters. The University of the South Pacific Library, 1999.
    http://www.reefbase.org/download/downlo ... 00004783_1
    also here:
    http://www.radio-media.com/fish/OnlineP ... nOfDOC.pdf


    "Carbon is the link between the inorganic environment, and the living organisms. The carbon cycle basically illustrates the interchange of carbon between the atmosphere, hydrosphere, biosphere and the lithosphere. The focus of this study is the dissolved organic carbon (DOC) in natural waters, specifically marine and estuarine waters. In natural waters, the total organic carbon (TOC) is composed of particulate organic carbon (POC) and DOC. In most of these waters, the concentration of DOC is greater than the concentration of POC. For example, in the sea, the concentration of DOC surpasses POC by a factor of 50 to 100 percent.

    DOC in natural waters is usually made up of fatty acids, carbohydrates, amino acids, hydrocarbons, hydrophilic acids, fulvic acids, humic acids, viruses and clay-humic-metal complexes.

    In oceanic waters, DOC levels vary around 0.5 mg/L, but can also be as high as 20 mg/L in coastal waters, and at the continental shelf.

    The total DOC in seawater is [estimated at] 0.7 mg C/L, and is a major reservoir of organic carbon. In coastal waters, because of increased phytoplankton activity and the input from land, DOC values can be as high as 20 mg/L.

    The production of DOC is led by the phytoplankton, via exudation and
    cell lysis. The role of phytoplankton in DOC production is also important in other natural water bodies like lakes, where such release is of ecological significance because the DOC released provides a source of energy to heterotrophic consumers and decomposers. The release of DOC by phytoplankton is also considered to be a functional response of individual cells to changes in environmental conditions. In addition to phytoplankton, planktonic grazers like copepods and protist grazers also contribute to DOC production via excretion. Other marine organisms also excrete DOC via their wastes, and the decomposition of their dead bodies by microorganisms like bacteria and fungi.

    Carbohydrates are highly reactive, and they support heterotrophic metabolism.

    DOC plays an important role in the bio-geochemistry of any aquatic system, because it is a component of the total carbon which is cycled through organisms, the water body, sediments and plants. Therefore the bulk analysis of water for DOC is essential for the overall understanding of the production-decomposition cycle, and the variability of DOC in an aquatic system.

    The tissue of all plants and animals in the marine and estuarine waters have significant amounts of carbon. The carbon is taken primarily in the dissolved state [DOC] by the organisms. In other words, DOC in aquatic ecosystems provides energy and carbon for the metabolism of heterotrophic bacteria, plus some species of phytoplankton which can subsist heterotrophically on dissolved organics.

    DOC, primarily in the form of humic and fulvic acids, binds organic pollutants such as phthalates and pesticides as in the case of heavy metals.

    The ultimate fate of DOC in an aquatic system is its oxidation (to carbon dioxide) by bacteria, fungi, protozoan and animals present in water. "

  2. #82
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    Re: film algae on glass ,,again..

    Thank you Santa Monica!!! I see you used a couple of my posts as examples, thank you, that means a lot to me!! I am no expert on this info but I try hard to research and research again and then research again because of conflicting info out there. I do understand that DOC's are governed by bacteria and such other organisms that consume them just like the nitrogen cycle does to ammonia, nitrite and nitrate (nitrate is consumed in the presents of no oxygen, by this the nitrogen cycle it then complete, and you would not need a scrubber in a FW tank but this so hard to duplicate that its impossible by my trials and knowledge of such), once established. Of course the Scrubber put a HUGE dent in this but, I feel they work side by side to keep some kind of balance as I would assume. Finding a system that will take of all nutrients is just simply astounding to me!!! OK, let me stop rambling!! lol
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  3. #83

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    Re: film algae on glass ,,again..

    You mean the one that was set up for the experiment, and which was given no time for the bacteria/microbes to grow and do their natural filtering/consumption? Reef studies show that the turnover time of bacteria requires about 3 weeks; this means that any increase in doc requires about three weeks before the bacteria/microbes can catch up with it. Just like cycling rocks requires time.
    If you check the acknowledgments you will see that apart from the author's tank the water samples were provided my members of State College Aquarium Reef Society so to say that these were hastily set up experimental tanks is skirting the issue somewhat. Give the people who carried out these tests some credit.

    DOC did not "cause" anything. Otherwise, there would never have been reefs in the first place. Guess what?... Fat "causes" heart problems. So if you have any "fat" at all, which we do, you and the rest of us are going to start having heart problem tomorrow. Yes tomorrow. It must happen, because fat "causes" heart problems. Wait a minute, you mean there are people with fat who don't have these heart problems? How? The definition is: Fat causes heart problems. Period. And, DOC "causes" coral mortality. So, using your own definition, all corals on all reefs (which all have doc) are all going to start dying tomorrow.
    The important word which you have conveniently omitted from my post is EXCESS. Doc is the primary energy source, I think that is obvious now but an excess of most things will cause more harm than good. We all know of someone who says cigarettes have not harmed them and they have been smoking for 70 years. They are the exception not the rule.
    I have never said that reefs with doc will all die. I have said that many studies have now shown that EXCESS doc stimulates EXCESS microbial growth of a more pathogenic kind, which causes an increase in coral mortality.
    In my defence in case I am seen as a scrubber hater which I am not, it seems that in aquaria IF the scrubber is effective at keeping inorganic nutrients, ie phosphate and nitrate, at negligible levels, this excess microbial growth does not occur because there growth is limited by lack of these nutrients.
    If, however, in the case of a poorly designed or inadequate scrubber, the inorganics were not kept at very low levels, in combination with the doc this could lead to an increase in microbial growth and coral mortality.

    Yes if you take doc measurements near sewage outlets and river estuaries you can expect elevated levels of doc beyond the 1.1ppm +-0.4ppm of a healthy reef.

  4. #84

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    Re: film algae on glass ,,again..

    wow my head hurts,,,great debate tho....

  5. #85

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    Re: film algae on glass ,,again..

    Quote Originally Posted by SantaMonica
    [quote:1ehe91ew]When coral samples were subjected to excess levels of doc if they were also treated with antibiotics the death did not occur because the microbes were killed.
    Don't you realize that this is because there is no natural filter in place to eat the DOC? This is like adding a bunch of ammonia to a tank; it kills everything if there is no natural filter. But if ammonia is added gradually, as in cycling a tank or natural animal processes, the natural filters consume it. Same with DOC... in a functioning tank or ocean/lake, the flux of carbon is from DOC to bacteria/microbes; the bacteria/microbes are already in the water, eating DOC and thus producing more particulate food. But if you just add DOC out of the blue, and don't have an established natural filter already in the water, of course you are going to get a spike in bacteria on the corals. But so what? It's not how tanks/lakes/oceans operate. Tanks/lakes/oceans do not sit there without bacteria/microbes, waiting to be overdosed with a pulse of DOC, the way the test-tanks are overdosed. I'm surprised the analysts did not think of this.
    [/quote:1ehe91ew]

    What i was trying to say by this was that it was not the excess doc that killed the coral by itself. If the water was treated with antibiotics to kill all the microbes and bacteria the corals suffered no damage whatsoever which presumably means that being in contact with excess doc in itself poses no problem. This different to ammonia of course which would kill the coral.
    When excess doc, however, was used with no antibiotics, the corals died due to the vastly increased microbial growth on the coral surface.
    So no, excess doc per se does no harm by itself, the chain of events it causes, however, does.

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