110 First Scrubber Questions for first scrubber(odd circumstances).

[ProfessorD]

Ello all,

I have read the threads on this forum and I believe my scrubber is set up correctly, but I actually have a strange set of circumstances. Per a previous thread, I noticed that there was mention of the horticultural grade CFL bulbs. I have one of those and the reflector unit. In my setup, I currently have a 125watt,6500k mogul based power compact. I have used this bulb on my refugium for about two months, and with it's output, I have harvested cheato every ten days due to it's growth(I am pulling out 1/2 of a 5 gallon bucket every ten days), however after reading I believe the original article by SantaMonica on RC, I found this site.

I then, this past Thursday, built a 14"x6" waterfall scrubber. It is powered by an Aqueon 3000, which pumps at 630gph. Between yesterday and today, I purchased one of the 68watt 2700k CFL and a small reflector. So depending on whether you count the actual wattage of the bulbs, in my case 125 and 68 or the "equivalent to" wattage which would be 625 and 300, I am trying to figure out a few things. The first is that my scrubber, which has actually been in use since I set up my tank as a refugium divider, and thus the reason I began this quest, as you will notice in the photos, at the bottom of the screen/mesh, there is already an alga that grew on it's own with only the spill over of the 125watt CFL that was over the refugium, as it was the spillover from the far right hand chamber to the fuge area. The only difference that I realize now is that there was only water flowing over that area at the bottom, thus, the only area to recieve the benefit of algea and air mixture. Of course since I added the water flow, I have not noticed much to any growth, but then I realized I probably had not roughed the surface enough, so I put the dremel ;with sanding drum to it. In the picture are the results. I did notice that there are algea growing at the bottom of the diamonds in the grid, so I am thinking within the next couple of days, it should, I hope spread. Also, I spread some of the lower algea all over the screen. In an attempt to accelerate things, I picked up a 68watt 2700 medium(standard) base CFL and reflector and placed it "between" the output of the 125 and right next to the scrubber . I then roughed it up this morning with the dremel and also after adding that I read some more and I added the saran wrap to keep the spray away.

The question I have mainly centers around lighting placement. Should, instead of placing it on the side where it is(between the output of the Sun System125 reflector) to speed up the growth that has grown back since Thursday, or should I place it on the other side, and make my unit a two side scrubber? I am sort of at a quandry, as I can use the 68watt on either side, but the 125watt is in a reflector unit. I also thought this morning, that, I could possibly add another reflector and horticultural bulb, suspend it directly above(or a little to the left) the scrubber, thus getting a very good amount of light soley for the scrubber. The other thing is that, these horticultural units(mogul based bulbs) can take up to either a 250watt or 300watt bulb, the 125 is simply an economical way to get into the higher powered CFL's at a very inexpensive price.

I, therefore am seeking any suggestions on my little abnormal project and circumstances(according to what I have thus far read). And which unit does everyone go by, the actual wattage or the equivalent to wattage, as even for a 68 watt bulb, it is extremely bright to me, and I am used to sodiums and halides. I also simply wished to overpower my light in the tank to of course to encourage the scrubber growth versus the tank as a place for algea, thus also, the lower kelvin for the 68watt bulb.

Once again, any suggestions if you have a great understanding of these or what exactly I could expect from the higher powered lights, as even though the bulbs do not get hot, they also have a lot more initial lumens, and I worry about possibly burning the algea by the bulb being so close. What range would be recommended for higher powered lighting as an initial distance?

Thanks,
PD

[ProfessorD]

also, the first pic is showing a close up of the 68watt and the second pic is showing the overhead with the output of the 125 very visible.

[SantaMonica]

Without know how much you are feeding, I'll say:

1. Replace your current light with a 33 watt 2700k cfl with a reflector that directs all the light to the screen.

2. Add another one of these bulbs and reflectors to the other side of the screen.

3. Replace the screen with a single layer of very roughed up plastic canvas.

Run the lights for 18 hours. If done properly, the chaeto should die.

[ProfessorD]

Understood, but I thought the more light the better? And, lol, all the light is directed at the screen in abundance. Even with only the 125, I am getting 6900 lumens/footcandles all across the screen at two feet away, or if replaced with the plastic canvas. Do you know what the footcandle readings are that you all are getting at the screen? That will advise me exactly what I need to do. I am just curious, as I have been in hydroponics for years and lumens/footcandles determine what distance is required and that could be my guide. I will change to the plastic canvas however and I am thinking as the 33 watt is less than half of the 68(at the bulb I am getting 4150fc and at the screen, I am getting 4079), so at very best, they are giving off half of that. So, with doing the math, I am looking at at least 6 to 8 inches from the screen in the general area to get the same readings. I haven't measured any of my CFL's that I have on my lighting fixtures, but unless someone can advise to the numbers being emitted at their screen, I suppose I am on my own. I can share the results if anyone is interested, otherwise, I will just leave it be, as my situation seems to be a bit more extreme in a sense than most have dealing with their refugiums or ATS systems.

I just have a good 200.00 wrapped into these two lights now, so I am going to have to work with what I have, as the high output I have had for a few months. I can return the lower wattage bulb and reflector, then spend a few dollars more(total of 60.00 for the complete system) and I can purchase another 125 watt system dedicated soley for this. In this and the other 125 systems, they both have reflectors on the units and as the reflectors are dual parabolic, with hanging them overhead, the light spreads down and out, so if I did that, the only thing that would be shadowed is the pipe, but because of the amount of light and reflector, that would be overcome. Those come in both 2700k and 6500k.

I thank you for your response though.

[Garf]

Welcome Proff. I'm interested in everything you know. What I can say is that a 23 watt cfl puts out between 1100 and 1200 lumens. 4 of these is sufficient to light a 12 x 6 screen if you light both sides with the light source about 2 inches from the screen. However, as you probably know, natural full sunlight is 10000 lumens, so it is unlikely you can over illuminate the screen. I do believe however that the screen should not be lit from an oblique angle due to shading from the growth which can be considerable.

[ProfessorD]

LOL, I don't know much, so there isn't much to share, but sure, what would you like to ask?

And cool, another light meter person! Sweet! And I never tested it, as my meters always went out of range, but I know that a 400 sodium puts out out 40,000 lumens/fc, so if I remember, natural sunlight is actually 100,000 lumen/fc. That is from what I remember, as I have not measured it in over a decade. And actually, with these bulbs, I believe you co(uld, or at least, produce a different type of algea, as the light gets higher, just as in hydroponics. When there is sufficient food and light, on rockwool that is overwatered, you get the moss algea(which I believe if i remember correctly, basically was a short turf algea, as it was like astroturf, but the color varied depending on what nutrient was being pushed heavily and also the amount of oxygenation in your system), but there was never a constant flow such as these, and the tds and density of hydroponic food is much lower of course than saltwater, so it is hard to compare the two, as they are also in different ph ranges. I am very new to this dense of a liquid, so basically, overshooting is very easy if using horticultural thinking and methodology. But then, because it is more dense and ionically, should be more stable, that, if my thought pattern is correct, should make it more difficult for light transmission compared to freshwater and your level of penetration, therefore reduced. But this is all just a hypothesis of mine.

The thought is of mine, that, because my alga grew at the bottom where there was liquid, and because it was that much further away, yet it did indeed develop the turf type of algae in bright blue/green, the light levels must have been very high to this strain of algae and also, that the 6500k spectrum must have been condusive to that strain of algae growth, just as other algae have optimal color spectrum. At least that is my theory, as I had originally planned on getting the lower kelvin bulb for my fuge, but thought to myself about metal halides(the standard ones such as the Hortilux and others that are balanced within the spectrum of light that is used in hydroponics)and their color. It is more of a blueish to green and not red color. Once you get into the reds, your in sodium territory, which causes elongation, and non compact growth, so I said to myself, lets try the higher kelvin. So, I think I am going to experiment. Leave the blue 125watt 6500k on one side, and plac the newer 68watt 2700k on the other. I may build a reflector, or simply purchase another 125 system that is inexpensive and local. No where near as elaborate as the Sunlight Supply(Sun System) unit, but in this case, it is not needed whatsover, as either way, I am still overkilling... LOL

But as usual, I will have to wait to upgrade, but until then, I will just move the red bulb to the other side and see what happens.

[Garf]

I like your way of thinking. However you obviously know the photosynthetic absorption spectrum proves that most white light is not used in photosynthesis. Most people use red, but I think there is a growing band of people that think blue is also important, I am one.

Missed a "0" off the sunlight lumen thing.

[ProfessorD]

yep and I am one also one, as that is why I mentioned blue/green. White is a collection of colors imho, or at the other end of the color spectrum, just as UV light is. Just a theory of mine. There are too and soo many factors that I still do not understand, so I just try to experiment.

[Garf]

Are you suggesting UV has a role.

[ProfessorD]

Not quite sure to be honest. That one I really don't know, but one would think there is a use for it, at least for possible removal of the pods from possibly the screen, as there is the range as far as the flow speed in which you destroy planktonic life. I am not sure how it could be done in a simplistic scrubber, but in the more elaborate enclosed scrubbers, along with a controller hooked to the uv bulb/fixture and just "flash" the screen/scrubber and either slow down or speed up the water flow, just long enough to flash kill the pods. That would require much calculation and very well to the average(and for this one, I would definately be considered in the average group) person/aquarist, is more than they want to do, as for most of us(my guess is that I a,m not alone on this), you invest soo much time, energy, patience, studying and experimenting, that something as small as this, as there is already an easier method to ridding of the pods, is overkill.

But then, for someone who works long hours, etc, there is definately a possibility that they may find an interest in something of this magnitude. Also someone with a controller(which I have and you have no idea how useful they are until you use one), as it is easy to program the correct pump to oscillate, timer it, and control it's speed. You then could effectively control the kill, the timing and anything else for the UV, the ATS, etc. There really isn't much you could not do, minus your limitation on your programming skills and the number of outlets you have(I currently have 24 dedicated plugs/3 power strips, two switch ports that do not supply power, simply an on/off trigger for something plugged into one of the power ports) available.

But as far as UV, those two uses are basically what I could only find for UV off the top of my head and with limited thought involved. LOL, I have to find some plastic canvas today and replace my screen within the scrubber.

On a side note, SantaMonica mentioned that the cheato would start dying, well, it has done that, I should remove it correct, I just have lots of shrimps, baby starts, pods, etc in that matting. I did notice yesterday that on the surface, there are lots of bubbles within the cheato and I have no idea what that means?