Skimmers help Scrubbers breathe ?

[SantaMonica]

Bacteria are like algae; their N:P:K numbers can vary widely from high to low based on the nutrients available.

[Garf]

My skimmer never worked this well before having a scrubber on the tank;

[Garf]

Another fact;

http://bionumbers.hms.harvard.edu/bi...o marine algae

Ok, so bacteria n : p ratio is 9:1, And green algae n : p ratio is 27:1 (may explain the recent trends in nitrate depletion), surely a mix of bacterial removal ( powered by algae exudate [skimming] ) and regular algae removal can, and perhaps should be, used in conjunction to provide optimal conditions and eleviate the reported coral losses due to bacterial encroachment, and provide a water n : p ratio of 27:1 to prevent cyano dominance.

This method could then manipulate water conditions as and when required to maintain this balance in favour of green algae which in turn provides the power source for bacteria and it's removal when required.

[SantaMonica]

That link is not correct. Bacteria and algae have widely varying ratios, and even a given ratio will vary based on limiting nutrients. If a given alga has N:P of 16:1 during exponential luxury uptake, that same alga will grow at 10:1 when N is limiting (albeit slower).

Stated ratios are only "in the best situation that could exist". However algae (outside of blooms) don't live in this optimum situation for very long, if at all; so they adapt. Also, transitory uptake does not have to equal long term bioassimilation or growth, because of the N and P stores (P being stored in polyphosphates). We don't care about bioassimilation, only uptake.

[Garf]

That link is not correct. Bacteria and algae have widely varying ratios, and even a given ratio will vary based on limiting nutrients. If a given alga has N:P of 16:1 during exponential luxury uptake, that same alga will grow at 10:1 when N is limiting (albeit slower).

Stated ratios are only "in the best situation that could exist". However algae (outside of blooms) don't live in this optimum situation for very long, if at all; so they adapt. Also, transitory uptake does not have to equal long term bioassimilation or growth, because of the N and P stores (P being stored in polyphosphates). We don't care about bioassimilation, only uptake.

Yes, sure the numbers are generalised. However I have trouble reconciling the " everything adjusts theory ". Therefore no organism would become dominant, everything would live in harmony together (which would include display algae - it would just learn to grow at lower nutrient levels). From what I can tell "luxury uptake" is a survival strategy for nutrient depleted systems that have intermittent high levels of nutrient, and doesn't really apply in aquaria. Quite willing to change my mind if you got some good links proving otherwise though.

[Garf]

Another means of adjusting the ratio when kalkwasser and skimming is combined (all my cal, mag and ALK is through kalkwasser). Quote from RHF.

If the calcium carbonate deposits are growing, then phosphate may become buried in the growing crystal, which can act as a sink for phosphate, at least until that CaCO₃ is somehow dissolved. Additionally, if these crystals are in the water column (e.g., if they form at the local area where limewater hits the aquarium water), then they may become coated with organics and be skimmed out of the aquarium.
If phosphate binds to calcium carbonate surfaces to a significant extent in reef aquaria, then this mechanism may be attained with other high pH additive systems (such as some of the two-part additives, including Recipe #1 of my DIY system). However, this potential precipitation of phosphate on growing calcium carbonate surfaces will not be as readily attained with low pH systems, such as those using calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactors or those where the pH is low due to excessive atmospheric carbon dioxide, because the low pH inhibits the precipitation of excess calcium and alkalinity as calcium carbonate, as well as inhibiting the binding of phosphate to calcium carbonate.

[Garf]

Another hair brained idea - considering my co2 and extra temperature mods on my scrubber are growing lots of algae on the lit part of the screen, and what I assume is bacterial slime on the unlit part of the screen (maybe nitrifying bacteria);
http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html
How about feeding a skimmer with extra co2 and heat. There would be a roughed up unlit screen inside the skimmer body to allow growth of bacteria, when the aggregate of bacteria let go of the screen it should be skimmed out, therefore taking nutrients with it.

[Ace25]

I have never understood the skimmer pictures.. I see it so often in the "My skimmer is better than yours" type of threads on other sites, either with a cup full of bubbles or various stages of 'black stinky stuff'.. I can easily make my skimmer do that any time by just turning the knob 1/16th of a turn in one direction and get it to fill with bubbles like the picture or turn it 1/16th the other direction and it will fill it with thick black skimmate but takes a couple weeks instead of days. Skimmers work just like algae, when there is something in the water which makes that particular form of filtration work, it works.. when there isn't stuff in the water for it to work, it sits mostly idle, although skimmers perform a secondary benefit, or in my case I call it a primary benefit, which is aerating the water even when it isn't pulling out the stuff that is capable of sticking to bubbles.

I do think the 'bacteria' line of thinking is the correct path to take at this point, but right now all of us are grasping at straws trying to figure out exactly what that entails. Keep on researching, at the rate you are going you will probably be the first one to figure out the correct method of supplementing the filtration with some type of bacteria filtration beyond what the tank normally does so keep up the good work.

[iiluisii]

I have never understood the skimmer pictures.. I see it so often in the "My skimmer is better than yours" type of threads on other sites, either with a cup full of bubbles or various stages of 'black stinky stuff'.. I can easily make my skimmer do that any time by just turning the knob 1/16th of a turn in one direction and get it to fill with bubbles like the picture or turn it 1/16th the other direction and it will fill it with thick black skimmate but takes a couple weeks instead of days. Skimmers work just like algae, when there is something in the water which makes that particular form of filtration work, it works.. when there isn't stuff in the water for it to work, it sits mostly idle, although skimmers perform a secondary benefit, or in my case I call it a primary benefit, which is aerating the water even when it isn't pulling out the stuff that is capable of sticking to bubbles.

I do think the 'bacteria' line of thinking is the correct path to take at this point, but right now all of us are grasping at straws trying to figure out exactly what that entails. Keep on researching, at the rate you are going you will probably be the first one to figure out the correct method of supplementing the filtration with some type of bacteria filtration beyond what the tank normally does so keep up the good work.

ace so you recommend using a skimmer with an algae scrubber? i been thinking of running a skimmer with my scubbber for a while to see what it does. i also was thinking on stating to use filter socks.

[Garf]

Dont think I have posted this link before so here goes;
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...f/index.php#16

Without the extra aeration provided by the skimmer, not enough carbon dioxide could be drawn into my system. Even if this aeration were the only useful effect of skimming, it would be worth it for my system.

Randy Holmes Farley.