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Thread: Marine Allelopathy

  1. #11
    cdm2012's Avatar
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    Garf, I agree with you that this is worth the time and research. I found this write up: http://www.algone.com/articles/aquar...aquarium-algae

    "It also needs to be noted that some algae types can avoid other species to grow. Pithophora (Green Hair Algae) for example produces allelochemicals that suppress the growth of planctonic Euglena (Green Water). Cyanobacteria is also known to compete against green algae, which by the means of succession means that cyano follows green algae."

  2. #12
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    No, unfortunately it does not explain these things. But fortunately what does matter is that some people get the results they want.

  3. #13
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    And some people don't get the results... and that is the point, figuring out WHY people like me don't have success on one system but do on another. There is something we are not fully understanding, and Garf is doing the most on this forum to help try and solve that puzzle. I will be an ATS user for life because I believe in the concept, so I am not an 'ATS basher' obviously, but I don't just put blind faith in anything, especially when I know there is something to it none of us are fully understanding. If a properly working ATS was as simple as the concept makes it sound, we would all have 100% success, but we are far from that. Sure, there are systems where they work fantastic, and systems where they don't work at all, same as Bio-pellets, trying to figure out why that happens is the puzzle I believe Garf is attempting to figure out.

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    This open minded search for solutions to problems is what has made science successful. We all need open minds and a deep sense of curiosity if we're going to make progress.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace25 View Post
    And some people don't get the results... and that is the point, figuring out WHY people like me don't have success on one system but do on another. There is something we are not fully understanding, and Garf is doing the most on this forum to help try and solve that puzzle. I will be an ATS user for life because I believe in the concept, so I am not an 'ATS basher' obviously, but I don't just put blind faith in anything, especially when I know there is something to it none of us are fully understanding. If a properly working ATS was as simple as the concept makes it sound, we would all have 100% success, but we are far from that. Sure, there are systems where they work fantastic, and systems where they don't work at all, same as Bio-pellets, trying to figure out why that happens is the puzzle I believe Garf is attempting to figure out.
    Cant say better

  6. #16
    cdm2012's Avatar
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    Could running a protein skimmer or activated carbon for a short while rid a tank of allelochemicals? I read somewhere that it can. So, maybe someone that is having poor growth, should try running a skimmer for a few days and then shut it off and see if growth occurs. If it doesn't, then allelopathy may not be the answer. But I'm no expert like SM, Floyd, Garf, or Ace. I'm learning!!!

  7. #17

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    Bacteria in the sand bed and rock break these chemicals down. maybe not fast enough in some cases.

    bacteria produce these chemicals too. But algae, corals, bacteria, etc.., also produce beneficial compounds as well. In the wild you usually have coral dominated reefs or algae dominated zones (not totally though).

    Some corals or algae are more tolerant than others and produce more harmful chemicals than others (caulerpa!). My guess is they don't last long either by being consumed, oxidized or dispersed to low concentrations.

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    My tank that has issues with the ATS (which doesn't appear growth related) does run a quasi skimmer and 2 canisters of carbon and GFO. Tank that is doing good only runs an ATS, BUT that tank also has super high phosphates, but they don't seem to negatively effect the corals even though according to the experts I shouldn't be able to grow SPS corals with phosphate as high as they are. To this day I have had the best luck running a tank when I used Caulerpa as my macro algae filtration, never once had an issue with it, but I no longer have that and in California it is illegal to buy (for good reason).

    Lately I am leaning more and more to the 'set it and forget it' side of things. The more I try and control parameters to how I would like them, the worse the tank does. When I let the tank do whatever it wants and find its own balance, things seem to thrive.

    Still, that is a very generalized view of my tanks and I know there are scientific reasons to why my tanks behave the way they do, which is why I appreciate all the research Garf does because it is like picking up new puzzle pieces to a 1000 piece puzzle and seeing if that piece fits into what I am working on.

  9. #19
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    Well, what can I say. I'm humbled by the responses so far. Just like Ace, I don't want to bash the scrubber, for crying out loud, I'm running one. What I can't stomach is the "your scrubber is weak" generic phrase to any problems. This is obviously not the case in most scenarios. There are other problems afoot here. We need to find a reason for these failures. If anyone has pertinent information regarding this problem, please declare it. The most obvious (although not scientically proved) to me, are secondary metabolites that are formed in algae and then exuded through natural processes. Together, we can get to the bottom of this.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace25 View Post
    My tank that has issues with the ATS (which doesn't appear growth related) does run a quasi skimmer and 2 canisters of carbon and GFO. Tank that is doing good only runs an ATS, BUT that tank also has super high phosphates, but they don't seem to negatively effect the corals even though according to the experts I shouldn't be able to grow SPS corals with phosphate as high as they are. To this day I have had the best luck running a tank when I used Caulerpa as my macro algae filtration, never once had an issue with it, but I no longer have that and in California it is illegal to buy (for good reason).

    Lately I am leaning more and more to the 'set it and forget it' side of things. The more I try and control parameters to how I would like them, the worse the tank does. When I let the tank do whatever it wants and find its own balance, things seem to thrive.

    Still, that is a very generalized view of my tanks and I know there are scientific reasons to why my tanks behave the way they do, which is why I appreciate all the research Garf does because it is like picking up new puzzle pieces to a 1000 piece puzzle and seeing if that piece fits into what I am working on.
    Interesting!

    It's given that higher phosphates can promote algae growth in the display tank on tanks that don't run algae scrubbers. Maybe it's the algae growing all in the tank that is causing the corals to suffer and not necessarily the phosphates. But because a tank that is filtered by an algae scrubber has the algae growing away from the corals in the DT, maybe the phosphates don't impact the corals as much as people think they do. Maybe trying to get phosphates to low levels is a problem with a scrubber. It's a possibility that just allowing the scrubber to do it's job without worrying about phosphates is the answer? What do you think? Or am I way off on this?!?

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