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Thread: Marine Allelopathy

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garf View Post
    What I can't stomach is the "your scrubber is weak" generic phrase to any problems. This is obviously not the case in most scenarios.
    I have hard times to stomach that as well.
    My friend has tank with no scrubber at all. Not a surprise his P and N is always low but measurable. But he has seen some algae only during cycle and then forgot how it looks forever. And his corals are all colorful and nice.
    Others including me have scrubber with P at zero most of the time. But never my tank was 100% free of pest algae. It seems like algae will dye off soon , but that day never comes. New tuft appears instead.
    Go figure.
    Scrubber is invaluable reducing N and P no question though.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdm2012 View Post
    Interesting!

    It's given that higher phosphates can promote algae growth in the display tank on tanks that don't run algae scrubbers. Maybe it's the algae growing all in the tank that is causing the corals to suffer and not necessarily the phosphates. But because a tank that is filtered by an algae scrubber has the algae growing away from the corals in the DT, maybe the phosphates don't impact the corals as much as people think they do. Maybe trying to get phosphates to low levels is a problem with a scrubber. It's a possibility that just allowing the scrubber to do it's job without worrying about phosphates is the answer? What do you think? Or am I way off on this?!?
    Well, it is a good theory. We all know algae and corals in the same location do not work together as algae releases chemicals that kills corals. That effect has been documented to death so I don't think there is any debate about that. I don't think running a scrubber and not worrying about parameters at all is the right answer though, I think I just got lucky on my 'ats only' tank that the phosphate levels stopped rising at a certain point, if they had continued to rise I do think my SPS corals would have died. I believe around .5 phosphates is the upper limit for phosphates with SPS corals and even then it wouldn't be a level I would recommend anyone else running on purpose. I am still coming back to 2 theories myself, 1. hair algae isn't that good of a macro algae filter and I think there is room to find alternate types of algae that would still work in an ATS environment that has a better C:N:P absorption ratio and 2. getting a better understanding on bacteria and how to maintain and grow the correct strains to best compliment the algae. Again, I believe it comes back to finding a balance in the tank above all else, screw trying to get certain parameters to fall within the experts rules (.003-.03 phosphates) because by manually trying to keep certain parameters within a abnormal range, you just end up fighting the natural filtration in your tank. You can't have it both ways, use nature to filter your tank then interact and change parameters to your liking because it then falls outside of what the tank likes in some tanks. Then again, other tanks may function fine if you keep your hands wet and always tweak it because the algae then adapts over time to your levels, but if you slack off in maintaining levels for just 1 week it could cause the tank to start into a nose dive. This is not an easy question/answer, but the more we discuss things the more we may understand it better, so everyone's opinions no matter how different they may sound is valuable in this type of thread.

  3. #23
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    Study shows that corals prefer to grow touching algae:
    http://algaescrubber.net/forums/show...light=touching

  4. #24

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    Interesting discussion.

    As I understand it, an algae scrubber is designed to provide a space more favorable for growing most type of algae than the DT.

    Now allelopathy may play a part in determining which species of algae dominant over which and where. If so, how can we eliminate this factor, so that the algae species in the scrubber is dominant over the ones in the DT?

    From what I read, light spectrum is also a factor in favoring one algae species
    over another. So if the light spectrum in the DT is perfect for a particular species of algae, wouldn't the DT be a better space for this algae than the scrubber?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SantaMonica View Post
    Study shows that corals prefer to grow touching algae:
    http://algaescrubber.net/forums/show...light=touching
    Ummm... your link is about turf algae, I am speaking about hair algae, which is the most common problem in displays. I will agree with you that turf algae doesn't seem to negatively impact corals as I have 1 rock that has a giant montipora surrounded by turf algae, been that way for years, and as the monti grows it just kills off the turf, albeit very very slowly.
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog...help-from-fish

  6. #26
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    Apparently they don't much signaling, since the majority of corals prefer, and do, live next to and touching algae.

  7. #27
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    Can the overgrowth of GHA next to, or top of, some corals prevent it from extending and getting light and nutrients?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-Horse View Post
    Interesting discussion.

    As I understand it, an algae scrubber is designed to provide a space more favorable for growing most type of algae than the DT.

    Now allelopathy may play a part in determining which species of algae dominant over which and where. If so, how can we eliminate this factor, so that the algae species in the scrubber is dominant over the ones in the DT?

    From what I read, light spectrum is also a factor in favoring one algae species
    over another. So if the light spectrum in the DT is perfect for a particular species of algae, wouldn't the DT be a better space for this algae than the scrubber?
    That's a fair question. Could that be an issue? Maybe another scrubber could be ran with the same spectrum as the DT lights.

  9. #29

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    What I still believe (and see in my tank) is that when the algae (types) in the scrubber has a faster growth ability then the ones in the DT, the DT algae will eventually die-off and vanish.

    I have done many tests on my tank the past year to try to get a better understanding about what is going on, and certain effects.
    Because of some tests, I "suffered" a lot of different algae in the DT. The worst period I had No3 to 100+ which was a result of 2 months only cleaning once and continuous feeding. (also noticeable: I never been able to measure Po4 >0,02)
    All these tests have led to Cyano, red marco algae, cheato, caulerpa, bubble algae, and lots more which I 'wasn't even able to identify.
    Though the biggest finding I had by all this is the folowing:

    The type of algae growing in the scrubber varied a LOT. It seems that the species in the scrubber adjust to the available nutrients, the feeding given, the light period and the flow rate.
    What I also found is that it doesn't really matter what species grow there.. It's hard to control any way, but the scrubber always knows best (!!)
    When you stick to the cleaning routine (7-10 days) the algae in the scrubber will (always in my case) out compete the algae in the display tank. Certain types like bubbles, and red macro's take longer to vanish from the DT, but in the end they will.

    Very important is HOW you have set-up the DT and stocking, and how many changes to the biota you do.
    When you give opportunity for wastes to build, you will end-up with some algae because the source distance is just that much shorter, and since corals house algae (symbiosis), it's not more then logic that algae are always able to grow in the DT..

    I have to admit: The best results in my case I get from combining LED on one-side and T5 (3000k) on the other side of the scrubber, lights on for 16 hours and 8 hours darkness.. The types on my T5 side differ from the ones on the LED side..

    As the scrubber matured over time, I got a combination (many types) of green hair and green turfs which pulled out the nutrients from 100+ to <1 within 2 months.

    Another finding is that 10% water changes per month have a lot of benefit. I haven't done a water change for a year, and only added kalkwasser with vinegar. But started picking up PWC since november last year. Certain minerals just seem to wear out over time and it's VERY hard to guess which. The structure and dependencies in the reef biota is complex as we know.

    What I also found is that the biota, especially the worm's, snails (which I have MANY different who all by it self) and "snake-stars" (also grew out of live-rock) and a lot more which are hard to see/identify have a very important function in that respect.
    They are able to breakdown wastes (DOC's) (which really just build-up) better then any device available.
    No skimmer can do what these animals do. Because of that, the turn-over from particle to nutrient is quite high, which again thrives the algae growth in the scrubber.

    My advice: Don't try to steer, set-up and forget I get the best results with the scrubber.. As always, nature knows best. Even though it's nature in a glass box..

    The holy grail for me is: http://www.coralscience.org/main/art...l-reef-ecology

    Decomposers are VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY important in ATS systems.. In my case it took over 10 months for them to become in numbers strong enough to coop with the waste numbers in my tank. And every addition of higher life means I see an adjustment In those too..

    just my 2-cents..

  10. #30
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    Can the overgrowth of GHA next to, or top of, some corals prevent it from extending and getting light and nutrients?
    Of course. That's why we want the growth in a separate box.

    What I still believe (and see in my tank) is that when the algae (types) in the scrubber has a faster growth ability then the ones in the DT, the DT algae will eventually die-off and vanish.
    Yes, and this is what most people find, on most forums.

    Because of some tests, I "suffered" a lot of different algae in the DT.
    Let me tell you about some display suffering

    also noticeable: I never been able to measure Po4 >0,02
    That's what I usually find: about half the people have higher N, and half have higher P. In the end, if the scrubber is made stronger, both N and P go away. The question is, how to make them stronger without more size or wattage.

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