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Thread: scrubber results

  1. #1

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    scrubber results

    I have an 80 gallon mixed reef/seahorse tank. About a month ago I installed a diy ats, waterfall. Used 1 inch PVS, and teed it off my return pump with valve.

    I measured the flow, using a mag 7, and my tank is getting about 240 gph (3x overturn) and the ats is getting 300 gph. (Timed how long it took to fill a 5 gallon bucket. My screen is ten inches wide, roughed up, and I am using two 40 watt (actual wattage, equivalent of 80 watt bulbs)
    Cfl, one on each side.

    The first three weeks I grew minimal algae. Sorta like someone spray painted screen green/brown. This past week I am getting some thick green/brown hair algae on it.

    I have been cleaning every seven days in sink, leaving about ten percent of the algae on it. So far in 3 days since cleaning it, it has grown dramatically.

    I Bought a Hannah checker. A week ago, my po4 measured an abysmal 1.06.

    To hurry the process I have done two 25 gallon water changes. Before my WC of 25% yesterday (after first WC) my po4 read .79. I did a water change last night, and if I did my math right, I should have landed at .59. Well this morning, with algae piling up, I was at .49, back to back tests.
    Fast forward til now, 14 hours after the morning test, I am at .41.

    So either my.math is wrong. Or the scrubber is pulling .08 out throughout the day.

    My no3 are at 20. Not sure what they were when I started, just started measuring them in the last few days.

    So my question is, do these numbers/ time intervals make sense, or is that simply impossible?

    Also, when cleaning, is it best to use tap water for say 90/percent removal, or is there a better way?

    My lights are on 19/hours a day.

    Also with numbers seemingly dropping like they are, any concern for other parameters, calcium alk etc.

    Lastly, the scrubber sits in my sump, second chamber where a fuge would have went. I am getting growth on the glass and baffles of that chamber. Is that okay, or do I need to figure out a way to focus light only on the screen. I am using small 5 inch home depot reflectors.

    Thank you

  2. #2

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    Ahh to be new to scrubbing...

    There have been at least one test using commercial fertilizer and an ATS to determine the amounts of each, PO4, NO2 that were consumed. I don't think the experiment was ever finished though. It's on this forum somewhere...

    I had DIY scrubber from almost the get-go, the best iteration was using red LEDs (I know our local Menard's sells a PAR 38 with red LEDs now) and weekly scrape down to bare plastic (or as close as you can with a spatula) and tap rinse, then I replaced my sump and vowed to get a "Surf 2" for the ease and noise reduction...few years later I did.

    A scrubber won't use Calcium at all, or Magnesium (equally as important as CAL) for that matter. But, it will chew through CO2 like a mofo. And as we all should know, "Alkalinity," as utilized by corals, is a measure of Carbonate hardness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonate_hardness) that as far as I've seen algae can utilize in the absence of dissolved/gaseous CO2 ;did we ever figure out if it's dissolved that algae use?

    That being said, an ATS will not "significant'y" compensate for normal pH swing, nor "oxygenate" your water, though it also wont deplete O2 levels either. Either way, you should dose CO3 in some form at least weekly if keeping stony corals, if not then...

  3. #3

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    Attempting to keep sps. Just Bought some 150w metal halides.

    Does my phosphate dropping that fast seem reasonable, or is that too much, or too good to be true?

    When cleaning the screen, sounds like you clean so you basically start from scratch each week, or do you leave some on there to grow?
    Also is 3 times an hour thru sump enough, or would I be better off hoping the flow back to the display?

  4. #4

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    Intensity of light seems to be more effective than time of light exposure, i.e., my 400 watt MH at 4 hrs can grow what T5s at 12 hr cannot.

    As for P04, the sooner it's gone the better. Nothing inhibits SPS like Phosphate does, or kills them IME. I would recommend running GFO short term to assist in PO4 reduction.

    As for the screen, if it's properly "roughed up" enough, you'll never get all the algae off no matter what you do, so go to town, or don't. The harvest is just that, get as much as you can conveniently remove off, you'll never get it all, and even starting with a new screen you're already giving the algae a more opportune place to grown.

    Flow: This one always pestered me. It;s an archaic methodology IMHO. Given a flow rate of X, it's simply a matter of X time until every molecule of water is "turned over" as they say. You hear this often in skimmer land. Well, the truth of the matter is simply this: If you have 10GPH flow rate in a 100 Gal tank it takes only 10 Hrs to "turn over" this water (obviously some water is pocketed and takes longer). Given that most equiptment is set-up to run 24-7, ~10hrs seems trivial, and results in over 2x "turn over" per day.

    Scrubbers work by removing PO4 and NO2 (more NO2 than PO4 sadly) and not food such as a skimmer does, as a result of 24x operation you can go low flow, like the "Surf 2" which uses pathetic bubbles to feed flow rates hah!. See, a scrubber does jack-all for preventing PO4 and NO2 like a skimmer, but once it's there it affects it effectively to zero unlike a skimmer can ever do (unless dosing sugar).

  5. #5

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    Understood. So you're saying regardless of flow, it will all enter ats at some point, whether now or 4/hours from now.

    Still puzzled as to if i really went from .59 to .41 in a days time just because of scrubbing. Would you believe it to be possible, or is my new Hanna meter not reading correctly?

    Also, by dosing c03, is that just like two part alkalinity? NY dkh is currently ten, never dosing anything, just water changes using red sea coral pro.
    Last edited by saltykid85; 05-11-2015 at 10:50 PM. Reason: grammar

  6. #6

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    Yes, regardless of flow rate PO4 and NO2 will uptake at roughly the same rate as 100gph.

    Your checker may be faulty, however, there isn't a baseline for uptake due to so many designs etc.. I wish there was, so who can say, other than lower is better.

    You are using a highly rated salt, however, it's been known that in the past salt makers have fluffed their DKH numbers by adding Borate/Boron (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/12/chemistry) which though it stabilizes pH, it does little for corals or other Carbonate hungry things. I personally use Instant Ocean that I bump the Ca and Mg levels to my liking while mixing up; a little trick I learned during a tour of Dr. Foster and Smith's coral propagation facility -saves much monies.

    Edit - I do not use the outdated "2 Part Alkalinity" stuff. Since I rarely, if ever do a PWC (partial water change) I do not wan't to add a lot of: Sodium, Sulfate or anything else that wont be used like Ca, Mg or CO3. So I only dose Sodium Carbonate (washing soda, aka soda ash), Magnesium Chloride (never sulfate) and Calcium Chloride. That is until I find a Calcium reactor that I don't hate, then it's out the window with all water changes and dosing.

  7. #7

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    IMO I don't think you can reduce P that fast with a relatively new scrubber.

    If you are using the Hanna Checker ULR Phosphate, then you need to 1) follow a rigorous testing procedure and 2) mark your vial with a dot and keep the vial in that same orientation for the calibration step AND the testing step, because variations in the thickness of the cuvette will throw off the test reading. This latter item is not quite as important in the low range checker, but it doesn't hurt to follow that same process for that one as well.

    As for P04, the sooner it's gone the better. Nothing inhibits SPS like Phosphate does, or kills them IME. I would recommend running GFO short term to assist in PO4 reduction.
    I agree that you want to get P down, but stability is really the most important thing

    Ask Richard Ross how well his SPS grow in P > 1.0. High P in and of itself is not necessarily an SPS killer - instability is. High P will slow down growth, but high fluctuations in P that result in instability of the water column (likely from trying one fix or another) is what can kill coral. Stability is key.

    Flow: This one always pestered me. It;s an archaic methodology IMHO. Given a flow rate of X, it's simply a matter of X time until every molecule of water is "turned over" as they say. You hear this often in skimmer land. Well, the truth of the matter is simply this: If you have 10GPH flow rate in a 100 Gal tank it takes only 10 Hrs to "turn over" this water (obviously some water is pocketed and takes longer). Given that most equiptment is set-up to run 24-7, ~10hrs seems trivial, and results in over 2x "turn over" per day.
    For me it comes down to more of a factor of nutrients delivered to the screen, and turnover rate is just an easier way to describe and quantify it. So I get what you're saying, to an extent, but I don't know that it's archaic. To me it's not a hard-and-fast rule, because every tank and scrubber is different.

    In a high nutrient system, a lower tank turnover rate might actually be wanted - so that you aren't over-delivering nutrients. But in a low-nutrient system, you want a lot of turnover rate or else your algae can starve. This also depends on the light used and the duration. Everything is relative to the system that the scrubber is on.

    The best thing to do is size according to the feeding guidelines, maybe 2x that size, set it up and let it run for a few months before changing anything. Just see how it grows - and let it grow. There is no longer a must-clean-every-7-days rule, you clean when needed. If you can still see the screen/grid pattern, it's not time to clean, unless it's a brand new screen, and then only room temp tap water and light swipe of the palm or gentle rub with fingertips. For a new screen you can typically go 14 days or more between cleanings, and you might keep this up for 2 months or more. So don't over-clean. When the screen starts to take off, then you can scrape, and whatever is left in the holes is your 10%, just don't scrub with a brush or anything like that and you're good.

    A lot of great advice by Aeros in this thread BTW, good links, good general tank methodology

  8. #8

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    My test procedure to rule out human error is as identical each time as I can make it.

    I always pull water with syringe from middle if tank, about 6/inches down. I pull about ten samples of water thru syringe to remove any potential contaminates.

    I then fill to same line, close tightly, and then run vial in ro water on the outside to rinse of salt, debris and fingerprints, paper towel dry. Calibrate, and the only part my hand touches is the black cap. Checker is always on flat surface, and I mix solution in a whirl pool fashion to eliminate chance of micro bubbles.

    What i don't like about test is the reagent. Sometimes, you get 80 percent of powder in vial other times you get 90 percent or so. Given the timer give you two minutes to add powder then mix, no time to waste. I will check it in an hour just to see where it went in a day.

    Thank you for your help guys

  9. #9

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    http://algaescrubber.net/forums/show...hecker-problem

    I've used the Hanna Checker quite a bit and never seen any colored particles precipitate. There is sort or a detailed process you have to follow to make this test work right, consistently:

    Fill the vial with the water sample
    Prepare the packet (before zeroing out the meter)
    - loosen up all the reagent by tapping/squeezing it with your finger while rotating the packet (move the air around)
    - hold the packet with one corner down and keep tapping to get all the reagent in one corner
    - Cut the packet with a scissors on the 2 top edges (opposite the corner where the reagent is settled)
    - open the packet by grabbing the 2 side corners and wiggling it back and forth gently until it opens like a mouth
    - this creates a spillway for pouring out the packet, using the top edge where the 2 cut edges meet

    Wipe the cuvette with a clean glasses-cleaning cloth
    turn on the meter, wait until it reads C1
    insert cuvette
    Press the button and release
    when it zeroes out, it will read C2, the you have exactly 3 minutes to do the following (I use a timer)

    - take out cuvette and open
    - carefully pour in reagent
    - cap cuvette
    - with practice, this above process should take about 20-30 seconds.
    - hold cuvette horizontal and rock it back and forth. Do NOT shake vigorously. Just keep it rocking to make the air bubble more the reagent back and forth and get it all dissolved. This usually takes right at about 2 minutes - it should all be dissolved. (use a timer)
    - wipe cuvette again with glasses cleaning cloth
    - insert cuvette into meter
    - press AND HOLD button for 3 seconds until the meter reads 3:00 and then starts counting down.

    Now the hard part is over. Set your timer again for 3 minutes so you don't forget to read the meter, as it will time-out after a few minutes.

  10. #10

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    Cutting the packet across 2 edges and opening it up like a mouth is the key. Either that, or take an index card, make a crease, pour contents on to the index card, and use that to funnel the reagent into the vial. I prefer the packet method, I always get all of it. And this is critical

    Which one are you using, the low range or the ultra low range?

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