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Thread: The project begins!!

  1. #31
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    Re: The project begins!!

    I am finding that the lower half of the screen which is not so brightly lit is getting more growth on it than the screen which is directly under the lights?
    Possible the bulb is too strong/near the screen, for the amount of flow it has. When flow is weak, the wattage has to be reduced from the recommended amount, or, the bulb distance needs to be increased.

    horizontals seem to get started so much quicker them verticals as there are many posts from vertical users who see no growth after weeks
    Only if they did the verticals wrong. When done correctly, especially with strong light and a rough screen (like mine) they can be full in 7 days from a brand new screen (like mine was two weeks ago when I converted to a roughed up double layer.) Most of the "delayed" ones you see are because of smooth screens, and weak light. Only last month was it realized how critical a super-rough screen is. I don't criticize theirs too much if they are on a different forum from here, though. Here, however, I do need to point the what is known to be correct.

    Yes massive growth and can see the difference overnight.
    Yours is indeed having a good start, congrats. And not to sound negative here, just realistic (and experienced). The growth you show is really not massive, it's average. I know it feels great, but remember I've watch hundreds of scrubbers develop from day 1 to one year. When they have rapid flow, strong light, and a rough screen, growth is incredible (i.e., your screen would be 1" thick in GHA by now, and need cleaning). My viewpoint is really not for you, though, so much as it is for readers who are trying to figure out what to build. They just need to know the good and bad to all options.

    No Blocking of flow
    Because there is no growth yet. When (if) the GHA gets to 1" thick, or even 1/2", that's when flows get stopped. The trick with yours will be to clean before this happens because the algae further down from this will die. I don't think it will get that thick, however, because of the lower flow, and the smaller bulbs that you said you might try.

  2. #32

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    Re: The project begins!!

    Hi SM....ok bit confused...when the algae in whatever form grows, to lets for arguments sake say..1inch think. If as you say the 'flow stops' where does the flow go? There is no way that the water on my design can go anywhere other than across the screen/across the existing algae. Please clarify,thanks.

    Hey, I do appreciate your comments and views as it only drives me to experiment further. Lesser motals may have buried their heads in the sand with white flags flying.

    Onwards and upwards all in the name of happy scrubbing!

    The Pisces

  3. #33
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    Re: The project begins!!

    If a patch of 3" algae grows up above the surrounding area, it will re-route water around it, and thus the areas below it will get less. The flatter the horizontal, the more this happens. A steeper angle will help correct this. Another way is to distribute the water up and down the whole screen, using a pipe with holes, instead of dumping it all at the top. A workaround is to just clean more often so that lumps don't get a chance to grow.

  4. #34
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    Re: The project begins!!

    Presently my horizontal is not very steep at all,(~10 degrees), and as SM describes my 3/4" high turf is playing havoc with flow re-routing. I have no sides either :shock:

  5. #35

    Re: The project begins!!

    Kcress, a quick question if I may, I too am at present a fan of the horizontal and have achieved what I set up to do which is no phosphate none of the nitrogen family and abundant pods for fish and corals.

    You say you are having problems with the routing of water, but is this having any effect on your nutrient export and happiness of tank?

    If you are getting a 3/4" growth in a week and have no detectables surely this is what you set out to achieve?

  6. #36
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    Re: The project begins!!

    Ah route...

    I have a very non-comparable tank.

    1) It is 165 gallons and it is three 55's chained together with fish jumps. The water is circulated from end to end so it's all homogeneous.

    2) It is a very old setup from the age of undergravel filters. The lift for these was achieved by mounting power heads directly onto the lift ports and then burying everything in at least four inches of crushed coral. Most all the pumps have failed so the CC is now acting as a Deep Sand Bed.

    3) There is no sump.

    4) There now are only two LARGE fish, a cowery the size of a lemon, and about 45 million grounds keepers.

    5) There are no regular water changes. It was last 1/3 changed a little over a year ago.

    6) Nitrates are sky high. Not 0ppm. Not 1ppm. Not 10ppm. Not 100ppm. But a little over 1,200ppm. It is hard to measure because I have to dilute dilutions to drop the concentration down to where any nitrate kit can actually return a valid reading.

    7) The two fish keep the tank they hang in most completely void of ANY hair algae growth.

    8) The other two tanks are essentially fallow. There is 7 inch hair algae covering everything but the Tang's specific gardens. The Tang keeps specific garden plots as it prefers only new growth of a certain species of algae.

    9) Two of the tanks are essentially fuges.

    10) The tanks are dimly lit most of the time but for up to 17 hours a day.

    Because of these conditions I have always assumed I would have a dynamite situation for an ATS. What has happened though is that every time I set one up I get only true turf! Very dense, very dark green, macro algae that is somewhat like a putting green in texture. It is tough and tight and sort of like a mini succulent.

    Even with high flow and intense lighting it establishes fairly slowly. I have never had a trace of light green hair algae ever appear on my screens.

    Knowing that my screens must compete against old well established HA in 110gallons of the 165g tank I don't expect fast results. Though with the nitrate loading I have I would think it shouldn't matter, as my water is like turbocharged plant food. Recently I extracted all the easily extractable HA out of my two refugium tanks. Approximately three gallons or 30lbs of wet but drained HA from my system to give the ATS - more yet - to work with. It didn't seem to make any difference.

    So to answer your questions.. I am not having 3/4" of growth a week presently. It is more like 1/10th of an inch a week. My entire screen is not covered but has a peculiar bald spot in the middle that is only now starting to show some additional 'turf' starting on it. It is lit with 90W MH so perhaps the color is not conducive enough. The flow certainly looks good and active in the bald area. However a lot of water is shunting over the edges due to the existing turf and the lack of edges. As for the reduction of nutrients I'd have to say I have seen nothing to demonstrate enough of, nor any reduction, worthy of dragging out the test kit.

    Keep in mind my system is a scientific and hydraulic endeavor for me more than an attempt at a spectacular show piece. I get lots of excitement from seeing a new life form emerge and run thru its routines, even bizarre worms and such. So, that's sort of where I'm at in my ATS journey. Learning and experimenting. And since I never have the green HA turf it's hard to compare directly with others.

  7. #37
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    Re: The project begins!!

    with the nitrate loading I have I would think it shouldn't matter, as my water is like turbocharged plant food.
    Yes but it's also food for the established HA in the tank. And since that HA has a far greater mass (1000 times more than your screen), it has control over limiting nutrients (probably phosphate). Even when you pulled the HA out, the remaining part was still probably 100 times the mass of the screen; same effect. So since the HA has the market cornered on the current P/N/light/flow combo, only real turf can compete, by using the stronger light (which is where turf excels.)

    When any tank full of HA gets a new scrubber, a jump-start period has to go occur; some scrubbers make it and some don't, depending on how much the owner knows. The scrubber must, at least for the jump-start, have very strong light and flow, and a very good screen for attachment to survive the strong flow. After the HA is beaten, things can be brought down to normal. Anthing that works against the HA in the tank can be used to help during this period: manual removal, lawnmowers, reduced flow, or reduced lighting. At some tipping-point, the HA in the tank will really start vanishing, while at the same time the screen will start exploding (with HA).

  8. #38

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    Re: The project begins!!

    Quote Originally Posted by kcress
    Because of these conditions I have always assumed I would have a dynamite situation for an ATS. What has happened though is that every time I set one up I get only true turf! Very dense, very dark green, macro algae that is somewhat like a putting green in texture. It is tough and tight and sort of like a mini succulent.

    [snip]

    So to answer your questions.. I am not having 3/4" of growth a week presently. It is more like 1/10th of an inch a week.
    I've been there!

    Started with nitrates at 500ppm +/-. I had that 1/10 inch of dark gunk for a while. Somewhere around 200ppm I started to get bright green thicker tufts. Below 100ppm the "tufts" were more than 50% of the screen.

    At this point there's a discontinuity. I did a 90%+ water change.

    Almost immediately the bright green thick stuff took over and what was left of the nitrates went to zero.

  9. #39
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    Re: The project begins!!

    Thanks SantaMonica and schnitm!

    The learning process continues.

  10. #40

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    Re: The project begins!!

    Ok as promised another update on my Horizontal ATS. Mine has now been running since the 12th October and am very impressed so far with the results.

    Nitrite 0
    Ammonia 0
    Nitrate started out at 20ppm now it's < 5ppm
    Phosphate 0.3 ... not seen much of a change here with testing but all my soft corals are looking much healthier. Either I have a faulty test kit or the change is down to lowered nitrate levels and an increase in plankton/critters...there's millions of them! When I see a drop in phoshate then I am hoping to see an even greater increase in my corals health.

    Fish colouration and general activity is very noticable. My Regal Tangs' belly area is an incredible shade of yellow as is the yellow in my Goldrim Tang...very intense colour change.

    I'm using an toothbrush to clean my screen. I brush it very gently from one side to the other in a set pattern so the screen gets cleaned evenly. When I did my first clean and placed the screen back in position I was faced with a slight reddish clouding for a few hours. I rinsed the screen using water straight from the tap...umm I thought. The next cleaning was carried out three days ago but this time I used RO water that was heated in an electric kettle to the same temperature as the tank water.I brushed as before and rinsed in a 5 gallon bucket with the RO water. When I placed the screen back in position and set the pump going again...guess what? NO cloudy water! I'm wondering if the use of chlorinated/ambient temperature water is causing too much shock to the algae which intentionally does not get scrubbed off?

    I'll be sticking to my latest method from now on as I am thinking also that over time there would possibly be a build up of chemicles entering the display tank by using tap water? Controlling the pod population I'm thinking will be met by the use of fresh water over salt water...Osmotic Shock.

    Comments welcome and also can anyone tell me which parametres they noticed dropping first..ie Nitrates and Phosphates?

    Cheers,

    The Pisces

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