New Design "Victory Scrubber Scrump"

[AlgaeNator]

Also about the flooding issue KCress, if the trough were to backup and the 1" drain line totally clogged, the water level would drop in the return section and the pump would pretty quickly start pumping air/water as the levels dropped in the return section below the pump's intake. The trough is pretty big in volume (larger than return section) and will hold enough water before spilling over due to the fact the Return pump in the now starved return section, would start sucking wind/water first, thus reducing/stopping flow from the overflow standpipes. Not a really great scenario either, but better than a flood I suppose.

And SM, About the slots, I agree they do allow for more water flow than the holes and run quieter too.. I do wonder about LARGER holes and FEWER of them though. (something to try) The Trick is getting them to flow EVENLY without having a mesh screen inserted into it to divide up the flow. Also like the holes, the slots also get clogged with small debris even, and the flow gets dicey sporatic (not stopped) at times if not watched. I am trying to come up with some out of the box thinking for getting water to my V Screens which wont clog and give good coverage and flow but is quiet with little spray (creep). I need an inspirational moment like the V screen idea came to me, as coming up with a good safe/quiet/even water flow delivery method has been a challenge and is STILL a challenge today that I have not overcome as of this posting.

And having studied the nature of water flow inside pipes with slots/holes/mesh or no mesh, I find the flow speed of course, is greater at the START of the slots/holes than it is near the end (due to the directional flow of the water if its introduced from ONE end.) You would THINK that this would cause MORE water to flow out at the start of the slots where the water enters, but actually, it's LESS, the speed of the water carries it OVER the slots unless they are LARGER/WIDER than the ones further down the line, or somehow deflected to flow out of the first series of slots (inserted screens do this) This is why im experimenting with delivering the water with a T fitting on one side of my trough, to see how it is when the flow is INTRODUCED in the CENTER of the spray bar, then it hits the T fitting (which is slotted itslef at the base) and shoots to EACH side. Seems to work ok but needs perfecting too.


There has to be a better way, I just hope I can find it.

[kcress]

Who's this KKress you keep conjuring up? :roll:

Sounds like your feeder pipe is not 'flooded' but running as what's called an 'open channel'. I mention this as it would all change if you transited from one mode to the other. Another words if you went flooded channel you would likely get more water out of the first slots. Perhaps some slight modification that brings you to sort of half and half would even things out.

[AlgaeNator]

Kcress,

My spray bars are each connected to 1 drain line from my overflow which has a CJStandpipe at its origination inside the overflow. Not sure what you mean by "flooded" and "open channel" and all that stuff, but I think due to the overflows being mixed with water, its more open than flooded, because the CJStandpipes mix in AIR with the water to break the siphon and its gravity fed and not under that much pressure/volume as it would be if it was supplied by a pump directly. So the water is flowing but its broken up a bit and aerated from the overflows and gravity fed.

I have tested running the slots with screen and without inserted screen, with a pump pushing the water under pressure (flooded?) and that is even WORSE, the water at point of entry, moves quickly by the first slots and amazingly the slots at the end of the spray bar flow greater and harder. I actually enlarged the slot in my hanging VERTICAL screen nearest the input side to increas flow at the point of entry. I would NARROW the slot down at the other side.. I actually used TABS on my first screen at the point of entry to DIVERT water at the start of the slot so it would get watered at that end of the screen.

The drilled hole method seemed to be the most even of all the flows as the spray bar pretty much pressurized slightly with the water as it was restricting flow a bit.

[ChrisD]

Algaenator

Here's some thoughts including things I wish I could do if I had the money and/or time and/or space....

Waterflow through unit
To me the problem here is that, especially if running of the tank overflow, people's' flow will vary. With the diy nature of the current units people do not have such serious issue with widening the slot as they made it in the first place. If, however, they have spent hard-earned cash to buy a pre-made option, taking a dremel to it is less attractive. So, if you had a mini trough on each side above the start of each screen with an adjustable slot in the bottom that would give some versatility. Any restriction on the flow across the slot would be somewhat balanced by a rise in water level in the feeding trough, hence increased pressure throught he slot. You could incorporate an emergency overflow in each feed trough should the slots get blocked. This may also help reduce noise as you could feed the trough with a large diameter pipe.

Lighting
I am using 4 18W CFL bulbs on my 8x11" vertical for my 55g and I have had a 2 degree CELSIUS increase in temparature. This is heat I really don't want! T5HO would be great due to remote ballast, LEDs even better (especially given the lamp replacement frequency). I will probably drop to 4 11W and see if this reduced the heat impact but still provides suitable growth. Make sure you think about avoiding heat input / incorporating fans to provide cooling.

Angle of the screens
Increasing the angle of the screens makes the unit narrower and gets closer to the benefits of the vertical design. Maybe there needs to be some trialling to determine an optimum pitch.

Hope this helps

[ThePisces]

Hi, interesting concept. Just one thing I thought I would mention is the use of a Rubbermaid container. Not sure if you read the article by Eric Bourneman on Marinedepot.com about problems with toxins leaching from a Rubbermaid trash can? You said yours was a prototype design but as soon as I saw the words Rubbermaid mentioned I thought I would give you the heads up on these products. Not sure if all their plastics are the same but better safe than sorry.

Cheers,

The Pisces

[AlgaeNator]

Algaenator

Here's some thoughts including things I wish I could do if I had the money and/or time and/or space....

Waterflow through unit
To me the problem here is that, especially if running of the tank overflow, people's' flow will vary. With the diy nature of the current units people do not have such serious issue with widening the slot as they made it in the first place. If, however, they have spent hard-earned cash to buy a pre-made option, taking a dremel to it is less attractive. So, if you had a mini trough on each side above the start of each screen with an adjustable slot in the bottom that would give some versatility. Any restriction on the flow across the slot would be somewhat balanced by a rise in water level in the feeding trough, hence increased pressure throught he slot. You could incorporate an emergency overflow in each feed trough should the slots get blocked. This may also help reduce noise as you could feed the trough with a large diameter pipe.

[color=#0000BF] thanks for reply Chris D. I saw that mini trough idea, is it the one where they cut PVC pipe, placed below a what looks to be a drip slotted spray bar? If so, That is something I do want to experiment with, I think that's what you are talking about and ajust that without having to cut/mod it. I am still looking at ways to let the water flow unrestricted, and then basically cascade/SHEET off onto the Screens somehow. Keys to solution are unrestricted even flow, less clogging, little as possible spray/spattering to eliminate creep and evap. If I come up with something viable I will most certainly share it.

Your point about an assembled unit and flow rates is a good one, It needs to be made clear if using overflows to power it, that It's up to the person how to run the supply of water to the trough, and results here may vary. But its better to try to figure out a method BEFORE that, one which reduces MOST user problems when using overflow power. Using overflow power, yes flow rates will vary depending on return pump sides and head pressure etc.. So a better adjustable method needs to be found before it can be put out on market powered by varied overflow flow rates. I think the overflow flow rate variation problem could be controlled however, by simply diverting some flow (it its too much) or running wide open as In my case. But they must have a MINIMUM amount of return flow rate to make it work.

The reality is, for most users, the most likely option is providing a bundled TESTED dedicated pump used to power it, which can throttled back if needed tuning it just right as the user wants. Also it would not be dependent on overflow rates or give the potential for flooding wither as its just cycling water. Not only that the pump could have a coarse pre filter on the intake (will need cleaning) which could prevent Debris from getting to the slots/holes of the spray bars. (another plus) Iwould like to be able to offer the SCrump as "OVERFLOW POWERED", as an OPTION, though if at all possible. For me, personally, I am a big fan of using LESS pumps as possible as they also ADD heat to the water too, among other things like electric bills and maintenance. So for me getting a proto to work on my own tank using overflows seemed logical and more of a GREEN way to go. If figured i already GOT 900gph circulating through my volume, why not try to use it? [/color]

Lighting
I am using 4 18W CFL bulbs on my 8x11" vertical for my 55g and I have had a 2 degree CELSIUS increase in temparature. This is heat I really don't want! T5HO would be great due to remote ballast, LEDs even better (especially given the lamp replacement frequency). I will probably drop to 4 11W and see if this reduced the heat impact but still provides suitable growth. Make sure you think about avoiding heat input / incorporating fans to provide cooling.

[color=#0040BF] The trough will be fairly open on each side dpending on light source used should cool farily well on its own, but something to consider again, is, this is where being able to use existing flow shines, as you have one less pump heating water as well [/color]

Angle of the screens
Increasing the angle of the screens makes the unit narrower and gets closer to the benefits of the vertical design. Maybe there needs to be some trialling to determine an optimum pitch.
[color=#0040BF] another good point could make screens more vertical since light is centered in middle.. but they do also run more quiet partially angled water slows as it falls, also I put drain line in between them to kinda support the angle[/color]
Hope this helps

[AlgaeNator]

Hi, interesting concept. Just one thing I thought I would mention is the use of a Rubbermaid container. Not sure if you read the article by Eric Bourneman on Marinedepot.com about problems with toxins leaching from a Rubbermaid trash can? You said yours was a prototype design but as soon as I saw the words Rubbermaid mentioned I thought I would give you the heads up on these products. Not sure if all their plastics are the same but better safe than sorry.
[color=#0040BF]I am using the clear type rubbermaid container for the return, I think the trough is PVC or ABS (will verify) but should be fine short term as this is only going to be up a short time while i prove concept. Besides.. the algae will consume toxins and die before the fish and corals? (hopefully hehe) lol Jk.. [/color]
Cheers,

The Pisces

[SantaMonica]

Chris: Put a fan on it; the temps will be back down to normal.

[ChrisD]

**Thread hijack** !!!

Thanks SM

Just getting a power supply to add a fan (will use a spare 92mm PC fan and see how it goes). Would rather not add the temp in the first place though as the fan further increases electricity consumption (minimal I know) plus increases top off amounts hence more water consumption.

I did back off the lighting to a 17 hrs on, 7 off and it's brought it to a more steady 38 Celsius so I'm happier with that. Might stick with the 18W and 18 hrs once fan is set up until the DT is clean and then drop to 11W lamps to see if it will sustain a clean DT (will still be 0.8W per gallon).

Might even look at making my own led grow lights. Look slike it would be about £60 for all the components. Not bad considering they will run for years without changes and only consumem about 14W.

**hijack over - sorry Algaenator ops: **

Algaenator - just had a thought on an adjustable slot design...
Are there two standard sizes of rigid pipe where one fits nicely inside another? Then you could cut a large rectangular opening in each and rotate them relative to each other to adjust slot size. Similar technique to drilling through the side of a loosely fitted end cap and pipe then twisting to adjust air flow on a durso standpipe. When it comes to cleaning simply open up the slot and any debris will easily be flushed out.

[AlgaeNator]

**Thread hijack** !!!


**hijack over - sorry Algaenator ops: **

Algaenator - just had a thought on an adjustable slot design...
Are there two standard sizes of rigid pipe where one fits nicely inside another? Then you could cut a large rectangular opening in each and rotate them relative to each other to adjust slot size. Similar technique to drilling through the side of a loosely fitted end cap and pipe then twisting to adjust air flow on a durso standpipe. When it comes to cleaning simply open up the slot and any debris will easily be flushed out.

No worries M8, its all good and heat is relevant to the thread something to think about!.... Interesting idea on the adjustable slotted pipes.. I will ponder that, and can look into that.. 1/2" PVC will slip pretty good into 3/4" PVC not sure how that would work though, I will be setting up a testing rig in my shop to test some other ideas I have as well as that one. Once I have my test rig setup I can really try all kinda things.

Right now Im working on testing narrow long thin Acrylic "Deflector" INSERTS, made out of thin plastic , They will go INTO and HANG on a slotted pipe (similar to how screens now are inserted into or below the slots with existing designs). I will use my "Zip Tie free" design to hold the acrylic "deflectors" in place inside the slots. I will use 1/8" very thin acrylic that hangs INSIDE the slot, it will be about 20" Long by 1/2 -1" H, so about 1/2" will hang below the slotted pipes to cascade deflect the water to the screen below. It's setup grab the flow inside the pipe and cascade it gently down ONTO the sheets BELOW It. So basically instead of the screen being inserted into the pipe, my short H sections of Acrylic will be inserted and will divert the flow down and across the L of the screens, allowing the flow to basically cascade down the screens on each side from the acrylic inserts which will be angled towards them. I will draw up the concept might be easier to visualize it that way, also maybe take a pic or two.

Even this method will need maintenance and cleaning and will clog up partially, eventually, but so far, my first attempt seems to work pretty good. Just need to tweak the flow and get the slot sizes down. I would prefer as LARGE a gap around the Acrylic as possible to allow for debris to pass. We see how that works and when the slot size becomes too large and counter productive to the system/flow in order to carry the flow across the 20" span of spray bar (a challenge). Maybe there is a way to create a hole thats large enough somewhere in the pipe to pass the larger debris that would clog the slot further down acting like a "cleanout" of sorts?

mmmm...