+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 6 123456 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 54

Thread: Where are good sps tank?

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    150

    Where are good sps tank?

    Where are the sps keepers?

    I've yet to see in even photos ATS as primary filtration for a sps tank.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
    Administrator
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
    Posts
    9,815

    Re: Where are good sps tank?

    Hardly anyone posts pics of their tanks here. This site is just for filtering. By the time you've put in the years to realize that skimmer's don't remove nutrients, etc, you already have seen a hundres sps tanks, so you don't need to see more of them on a filter site. If your tests come out good, and you have food in your water, your sps will grow. That's not the hard part.

    The hard part is non-photo corals. These corals can't have the food removed from the water, at all. And the food must go into the water continuously. And as strong as scrubbers are at removing nutrients, even a standard-sized scrubber has a hard time keeping the nutrients down on a highly fed non-photo tank.

    Most non-photo corals can last 3 months before withering away. So your quest for pics should be of non-photo tanks that have had the corals in-place and growing for 6 months or more. Tanks that can do this are replicating the natural reefs better than any other.

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    150

    Re: Where are good sps tank?

    Advanced aquarists would know that skimmers remove particulate and dissolved organics and that denitrification process limits nitrates already. I do very much agree that increased feedings is much better than some advice such as adding KNO3 in Zeovit systems.

    I am not discouraged by this just not viewing this technique as cutting edge either and wonder where photos might be. One caution with this is that sps can have a negative response to improving conditions if too rapid.

    I have seem some vague evidence on the Marine Depot forum by Eric Borneman suggesting this methodology is over looked often. He can be a bit over bearing to deal with as any type of mentor is this hobby.

  4. #4
    Administrator
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
    Posts
    9,815

    Re: Where are good sps tank?

    Cutting edge depends on your reference. It's really just the same ole' way the ocean has been operating for millions of years. So in that regard it's really no edge at all. But if the reference is how much food, vitamins, amino acids and bacteria you can keep in the water for the corals, and do so with no detectible nutrients, with almost no maintenance (multiple weeks with acrylic scrubbers), for no cost for the equipment, then it has the most edge.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    150

    Re: Where are good sps tank?

    Ocean also has dilution as major factor to control nutrients in locations with high biomass and bacterial activity.

    Trend I am seeing in tank is definite vanishing diatoms, and perhaps slight green film on glass, and perhaps slightly less coraline algae. It is too early to tell. Slight bubble and hair algae in overflow seem to slowly fade and feeding has increased.

    All corals look fine, except Orange Maldive Pavona that may be a bit pale. Areas do have active sweeper tantacles so I will continue feeding.

  6. #6
    Administrator
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
    Posts
    9,815

    Re: Where are good sps tank?

    Actually most of the water on a reef, stay on the reef. A reef recycles the nutrients, and thus does it's own filtering, via the benthic sea-floor algae. There is no real "water change" like people think:

    Functional aspects of nutrient cycling on coral reefs. The Ecology of Deep and Shallow Coral Reefs, Symposia Series for Undersea Research, 1983
    http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/general/lib/CR ... iver22.pdf

    It generally is believed that the main evolutionary adaptation to low nutrient conditions in reef environments has been the evolution of relationships that lead to efficient recycling of nutrients. The foremost example of this type of relationship is the [relationship] between algae and invertebrates.

    In order for the reef as a whole to be efficient in recycling nutrients, there must be mechanisms for recycling nutrients among these free-living plants and animals. The main problem [in proving that recycling occurs] arises when one considers that the same high water flow over the reef that assures a large source of low-nutrient oceanic water also assures that any nutrients excreted into the water by animals will be rapidly diluted and carried away [because this would dis-prove recycling]. Therefore, what is needed [to prove recycling] is a mechanism to prevent dilution and loss [into the open ocean]. I would like to bring attention here to a little studied mechanism, that of particle entrapment and nutrient regeneration within the reef framework.

    Coral reefs are riddled with holes and tunnels of all sizes. From 50 to 75% of the reef volume can be made up of these voids. These holes contain varying amounts of sediment which comes from a variety of sources, including carbonate sediments generated by degradation of the reef structure by borers, fecal material from fishes and invertebrates that use these holes as shelters or encrust the walls of the holes, and nonreef material (including terrestrial and pelagic) that is trapped inside the reef as seawater percolates through the porous structure. Organic materials [food] in these sediments are metabolized by microorganisms, and in the process, nutrients [nitrate and phosphate] are regenerated. Elevated concentrations of nutrients [nitrate and phosphate] have been measured in waters from these reef cavities.

    Reef water is 3 to 4 times higher in NO3 [nitrate] and slightly higher in NH4 [ammonia] and organic N [food] concentrations than oceanic waters. The most dramatic difference in nutrient concentration, however, can be seen between the offshore water and the cave water. Cave water concentrations are 13 times higher in NO3, 2 times higher in NH4, and 3 times higher in organic Nitrogen than offshore waters. These enrichments in the caves represent a significant increase in nutrients [nitrate and phosphate] for any primary producers [algae] that might have access to them [the algae would eat the nutrients].

    New nutrients enter the system in both dissolved and particulate form, or are generated [in-place] by N2 fixation. Dissolved nutrients, and some particulates, are taken up by the organisms [but mostly by] algae and zooxanthellae. Other particulates are trapped by the reef framework, and by filter-feeding organisms. Planktivorous fish [who eat floating particles] have been shown to excrete and defecate significant amounts of NH4 and organic material in their nocturnal shelters. Herbivores graze on the algae and corals, and then the carnivores, in turn, feed on the herbivores. The fecal material from both of these groups, many of which spend about one-half of their time sheltering in reef crevices, are deposited either into reef crevices or released just above the reef surface where it rains on to what can be viewed as a benthic wall-to-wall carpet of mouths. [Thus the recycling process is complete, without being diluted by the open ocean. By the way, the open ocean, below 300 feet deep, is very high in nutrients; so if the open ocean did "water change" into the reef, it would add nutrients to the reef, not dilute them.]

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    150

    Re: Where are good sps tank?

    Thanks for putting together this information. I like the terminology about recycling seen on typical reef systems, but view varying degrees of the influences mentioned dependent on location, biodiversity, and currents etc. I would be a bit careful of promoting a methodology as more than a tool to apply, even if often overlooked as this method is.

    In terms of recycling, much is exported by ATS, and not recycled in a closed system. Traditional 2-part dosing also should consider a bit of water change from potential to build up salinity. It may be possible that some DOC components are not food in a closed loop system as well. I am unclear about this.

    What I very much like to about this system is the ability to tie up and then export ammonia.

    I have been very carefully observing corals since switching over to ATS. My pictures are in another link if interested. What I have seen is that they appear healthy with a bit more polyp extension. First change was all diatoms disappeared and this was clear in tank with large clam that stirs sand frequently. Then diatom growth on filter slowed. Hair algae that is a bit pale appeared first and when washed away is grew back a darker brown/green. I do have iron to feed algae but not doing it until system has more time. Actually I only use CaCl2, NaHCO3, and MgSO4/MgCl2.

    I have many corals I can not identify fully as they are wild collected from Vietnam and Australia by local shop. I have increased feeding several fold, and see no signs of stress. Red turf algae has always been present (not cyano) and that seems to be fading a bit as well with the help of 3 turbo snails in a 140 gallon tank.

    I feed H20? Coral food, mysis, cyclops, rotifes, pollock/algae mix and oyster feeds almost 20CC/wk .

    Only down side is my Maldives orange pavona is a bit dull. I moved to other side of tank away from anything with sweeper tantacles and hope it imporoves. It has great actinic colors.

  8. #8
    Administrator
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
    Posts
    9,815

    Re: Where are good sps tank?

    In terms of recycling, much is exported by ATS, and not recycled in a closed system.
    Almost true. Just think about what you feed your tank... nori, probably. You are putting algae in, and taking algae out. In the bigger picture, no matter what you feed, you are feeding carbon. You are feeding carbon with one hand, and removing carbon with the other hand. So it's almost a truely recycled system.

    Traditional 2-part dosing also should consider a bit of water change from potential to build up salinity.
    How is this.

    It may be possible that some DOC components are not food in a closed loop system as well. I am unclear about this.
    All DOC is food, as in the ocean. In the ocean, DOC is the largest non-living biomass of all (bacteria is the largest living biomass). DOC is eaten by bacteria and corals, directly. And bacteria feed the zooplankton and corals, directly. And zooplankton feed the corals, directly. If you want several days of good reading, just read some studies on DOC and "microbial food webs".

    What I very much like about this system is the ability to tie up and then export ammonia.
    Yep, ammonia is algae's favorite food.

    What I have seen is that they appear healthy with a bit more polyp extension.
    Because of more particulate food (protein) in the water.

    I have increased feeding several fold, and see no signs of stress.
    You cannot "over feed" corals. They can eat as much food as you could ever put in the water. Probably 100 times what you are feeding now. The limit, instead, is how strong your scrubber is. In the ocean there is 300 feet of algae (phytoplankton) on the surfance, and on the reefs there are square miles of sea-floor algae, all doing the filtering. All you have in your tank is the few square inches of algae on your scrubber.

    I feed H20? Coral food, mysis, cyclops, rotifes, pollock/algae mix and oyster feeds almost 20CC/wk
    That's a nice start... 20 ml per week. I currently feed 48 ml per day. Plus, one dead fish (silverside) per week, plus about 10 square inches of nori per day. N and P are "zero". My fast growing sps double in mass every 4 weeks. When I stop feeding, they stop growing. I only have 150 watt halides. I probably need more wattage to get the same growth from the acros.

    Only down side is my Maldives orange pavona is a bit dull.
    Try doubling your food. You really are not feeding that much, for a scrubber. Food give corals the nitrogen they need to repair.

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    276

    Re: Where are good sps tank?

    what does the silverside feed? worms?

  10. #10
    Administrator
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
    Posts
    9,815

    Re: Where are good sps tank?

    Eel

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 6 123456 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts