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Thread: Where are good sps tank?

  1. #11

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    Re: Where are good sps tank?

    Traditional 2-part dosing also should consider a bit of water change from potential to build up salinity.


    How is this.
    Really basic chemistry but CaCL2 calcified with Na2CO3 will leave CaCO3 and 2 NaCl that will raise salinity. I use about 1 gallon every 6 weeks now so some water change to account for this will always take place in my tank.

    I will increase feeding a bit more.

    I think your doing a bit of hand waving to say dilution is not a factor of nutrient export still in a natural reef. If the gradient is between ocean and reef is 5 fold for nitrogen then it will take place and difficult to quantify. I am also certain some DOC is less viable than other DOC as food, at least for what is present in most tanks.

    What has become very dusty and appears more at some times of the day. Growth rate of coraline algae is less but over all calcium demand is the same so far.

  2. #12
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    Re: Where are good sps tank?

    If the gradient is between ocean and reef is 5 fold for nitrogen then it will take place
    Yes but the gradient is created by organisms on the reefs, and the nitrogen is also consumed by organisms on the reef, before the nitrogen can be "diluted" into the open ocean.

    I am also certain some DOC is less viable than other DOC as food, at least for what is present in most tanks.
    Of course it varies. But corals have evolved to use the DOC that is available (and produced by) algae. So if your system is run by algae, it will have the best cross section of DOC that suits the corals.

    What has become very dusty and appears more at some times of the day.
    If you mean "water" and not "what", then you are seeing 7-day-old baby copepods.

    Growth rate of coraline algae is less
    Should be more. Check your phosphate.

    and difficult to quantify
    It's been quantified very well in the pertinent studies:

    Online photochemical oxidation and flow injection conductivity determination of Dissolved Organic Carbon [DOC] in estuarine and coastal waters. The University of the South Pacific Library, 1999.
    http://www.reefbase.org/download/downlo ... 00004783_1

    DOC plays an important role in the bio-geochemistry of any aquatic system, because it is a component of the total carbon which is cycled through organisms, the water body, sediments and plants.

    and

    Swarming of Polychaetes on the Great Barrier Reef. Proceedings of the 6th International Coral Reef Symposium, 1988
    http://www.reefbase.org/download/downlo ... ocid=10533

    Polychaetes are a major component of coral reef ecosystems, occurring in large numbers in both lagoonal and inter-reefal sediments, and within infaunal communities of coral reef substrates. These polychaete communities are diverse, and include representatives of many families and species. Generalized comments have been made as to the role that polychaetes may play in the coral reef ecosystem, which include food sources for a variety of organisms, initial borers of recently dead corals, and recyclers of the abundant mucus produced on the reef.

    and

    Various aspects of the nitrogen cycle on coral reefs have been studied at different times of the year, and at various locations.

    Table 2
    Mean nitrogen concentrations over 1979 and 1980 at
    selected sites in three reef zones [readings are ug/l]:

    Zone................Location...............Nitrate +Nitrite

    South crest.........#4.....................0.35
    and back reef......#8.....................0.55
    Mid lagoon..........#10....................0.93
    ....................#11....................0.73
    ....................#13....................0.71
    ....................#15....................1.00
    Southeast and.......#29....................1.36
    northeast crest....#1.....................1.22
    ....................#12....................1.43


    Shelf-scale nitrogen and phosphorus budgets for the central Great Barrier Reef. Proceedings of the Eighth international Coral Reef Symposium, 1997:
    http://www.reefbase.org/download/downlo ... docid=7786

    All of the above fluxes [nutrient movements] take place against a very large background of re-suspension and deposition of particulate matter and associated nitrogen and phosphorus. A significant proportion of the total particulate nitrogen and particulate phosphorus measured in shelf water is detrital [waste], and much of this detritus is derived from or at least recycled through the [reef floor].

    and

    In the other 90%: phytoplankton responses to enhanced nutrient availability in the Great Barrier Reef Lagoon. Marine Pollution Bulletin, 2005
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15757726

    In the case of nutrients, however, benthic organisms and communities are largely responding to materials which have cycled through and been transformed by pelagic communities dominated by micro-algae (phytoplankton), protozoa, flagellates and bacteria. Because GBR waters are characterised by high ambient light intensities and water temperatures, inputs of nutrients from both internal and external sources are rapidly taken up and converted to organic matter in inter-reefal waters. Phytoplankton growth, pelagic grazing and remineralisation rates are very rapid. Dominant phytoplankton species in GBR waters have in situ growth rates which range from one to several doublings per day. To a first approximation, phytoplankton communities and their constituent nutrient content turn over on a daily basis. Relative abundances of dissolved nutrient species strongly indicate N limitation of new biomass formation. Direct (15N) and indirect (14C) estimates of N demand by phytoplankton indicate dissolved inorganic N pools have turnover times on the order of hours to days.

    and

    A TOTAL NITROGEN AND CARBON BUDGET FOR THE ELKHORN CORAL Acropora Palmata, Proceedings of the 6th International Coral Reef Symposium, Australia, 1988,
    http://www.reefbase.org/download/downlo ... ocid=10501

    Any ammonium produced from the catabolic breakdown of amino acids must be recycled within the symbiosis, since there was a net uptake of ammonium. Interestingly however, mean estimates of dissolved organic nitrogen loss were greater than inorganic nutrient uptake,
    indicating that some of the nitrogen acquired from particulate feeding may have been released as dissolved organic nitrogen / mucus.

    and

    Linkage of small-scale spatial variations in DOC, inorganic nutrients and bacterioplankton growth with different coral reef water types, Aquatic Microbial Ecology, march 2001
    http://www.int-res.com/articles/ame/24/a024p017.pdf

    Coral reefs are characterized by relatively high gross primary productivity [i.e,, growth from the sun] sustained by the symbiosis between corals and symbiotic algae, the large photosynthetically active area of reef surfaces, ample light, and inorganic carbon [i.e., CO2 etc]. Moreover, coral reefs are well known to trap [eat] particulate organic matter and nutrients from the overlying water. Nevertheless, the gross respiratory consumption [i.e, what reefs "give off"] in reef systems is approximately equal to the gross photosynthetic fixation [i.e, what reefs "take in"], and the net flux of organic matter is typically small [meaning, a reef recycles the nutrients, just like an aquarium]

    and

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coral_reef:

    Most importantly, nutrients are recycled, and not lost like they are in the open ocean. In coral reefs and lagoons, the producers include phytoplankton as well as marine worms, seaweed, and coralline algae, especially small types called turf algae, which pass their nutrients to the corals.[26] The phytoplankton are eaten by fish and crustaceans, who also pass nutrients along the food web. Recycling ensures that fewer nutrients are needed overall to support the community.

    and

    Coral reef primary productivity: a beggar's banquet. Trends in Ecology & Evolution, May 1988,
    http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve ... 4788901176

    Primary production in coral reef ecosystems proceeds rapidly through small packages. Maximum areal rates rival the best agricultures, but most of the organic production is conserved and recycled within component organisms and communities. Interactions with animals serve to maximize the productivity of both individual plants and extensive plant assemblages.

  3. #13

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    Re: Where are good sps tank?

    Corraline algae does appear OK on closer look and pleased with results overall. Only coral of Orange Pavona may be coming back after being moved away from Red branching pavona. Polyp extension does appear very good assuming this indicates good health. I am still going to perform water changes however as I do not use full balling system. It is very difficulty to quantify DOC, with advanced instruments and composition is very difficult. I am not overly concerned about idea of a fully closed loop system. Phosphates tested 0.02 with LR Hanna meter with no GFO in 4 weeks plus so am pleased.

    Trouble I see with your studies is that in now way do the benthic organisms in aquarium have enough biodiversity to perform as a closed reef system. While algae scrubber makes system more forgiving and provide a way to export nutrients, they also produce some DOC at the same time. It

    I have built another quarantine tank and made an in tank Scrubber that gets light through backside. I have the new DC controlled sump pump that can make a surge action. Tunze makes too many parts they have trouble tracking themselves. I'll post a few pictures when it is running.

  4. #14
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    Re: Where are good sps tank?

    benthic organisms in aquarium have enough biodiversity to perform as a closed reef system
    It's not the benthic organisms doing the filtering in a tank, it's the large quantity of chlorophyll in the algae. A scrubber that is packed with algae comes close to the amount of algae per unit area on a reef.

    While algae scrubber makes system more forgiving and provide a way to export nutrients, they also produce some DOC at the same time.
    Of course... what do you think provides DOC to corals in the oceean? Algae. And what do you think provides DOC for bacteria and other microbes to feed on? Algae. And of course, corals eat DOC, bacteria and other microbes.

    You are thinking that DOC "builds up" in a tank. It does not. The corals, bacteria and other microbes keep it in check. Otherwise the ocean would "build up". The corals cannot get enough food in a tank; they keep the DOC, bacteria and other microbes at a very low level because corals keep eating them. My tank is over 2 years old, running on just algae, and no water changes. If DOC "built up", it would have "overflowed" with DOC a long time ago. Just because you cannot "see" DOC being eaten, does not mean it is not. This is a basic function that any marine biologist understands.

  5. #15

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    Re: Where are good sps tank?

    I very much like the initial results I have obtained after 6-8 weeks but am trying to better understand system. From my reading DOC does build up or is perceived to build up based on the remaining color bodies that can yellow the tank over time. Color in water is usually a crude measurement but is just looking downward through a white bucket.

    Diatoms never went away previously partly from active large clams stirring sand. That problem is completely gone now.

    My version of the algae scrubber will have a few modifications.

    1) Tunze DC backed up sump pump on marine batter to prevent it from crashing. When power goes out relay switch draws power from battery that is stored beneath tank. I also draws for (2) Tunze 6105's. The system also has a controller that can alternate pump output to act like a dump bucket. I am concerned tank could easily crash if scrubber dried out too long.

    2) Two part dosing is very easy to control with AC jr controller and BRS Drew's dosing pumps. This results in salinity increase over time. This can be compensated by running a full balling system with expensive sodium "salt" free special salt mixes and blend of MgCl2 and MgSO4. I am compensating instead dosing weekly or biweekly 5% water changes that pulls out some detritus in sumps and overflows.

    3) I use one teaspoon per 20 gallons of carbon changed monthly. I am not interested in yellow tint as it is a display tank. The increased feeding I am already doing should make corals even if DOC along with colored bodies is removed.

    My next project will be to make a DIY alarm in AC jr socket that goes off when measured parameters ph temp are out of range. I also want to have ATS over refugium with sand in sump at some point but not right now. That would involve another new sump.

  6. #16
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    Re: Where are good sps tank?

    From my reading DOC does build up
    What reading is this? Show me the source, and then I'll post as many sources as you want that show that bacteria and corals consume DOC before it ever "builds up". Remember, that's what corals and bacteria eat... DOC.

    based on the remaining color bodies that can yellow the tank over time. Color in water is usually a crude measurement but is just looking downward through a white bucket
    1. There is no "pure white" color in the ocean to compare the water to. If you take that "pure white" bucket, however, to a "crystal clear" reef and get some water, and you compare it to another bucket of RODI water, you will see a slight greenish (not yellow) tint that the phytoplankton give to it. And if you scuba on a "crystal clear" reef, and you look far away while underwater, you will see the same slight greenish (not yellow) tint from the same phytoplankton. Thus, if you want a natural "crystal clear" reef, you do not want "RODI transparent" water color... you want slight greenish (not yellow) tint that you can only see when comparing to an artificial pure white surface.

    2. If you are seeing yellow, something is wrong. Usually, you are not cleaning often enough. Or sometimes, your light is not strong enough. I'll soon be posting newly discovered info (just found out last night) about how weak light increases DOC output of algae, more that it would "normally" have.

    I am concerned tank could easily crash if scrubber dried out too long
    There have been no reports of anyone's tank "crashing" from this. A screen can last 2 to 6 hours without flow, depending on how much air gets to it. And even after such an event, all you have to do it clean the screen, and stop feeding for a few days until the growth gets back to normal. Enclosed scrubbers usually won't dry out at all, even after a whole day.

    The increased feeding I am already doing should make corals even if DOC along with colored bodies is removed.
    Remember that particulate food (what you are "feeding") and DOC are two different types of food for corals. The more they have of both, the more they grow. Limiting either one will slow growth.

  7. #17

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    Re: Where are good sps tank?

    I have the problem of losing power for more than 2-6 hours and often at worst time. The flow in the tank from stream pumps may be more critical for the sand bed but I will continue with this method hardware.

    My current tank does not have a yellow tint and I am not comparing my set up to the ocean at this point. The source of yellow tint from algae turf scrubbers goes back to reading Sprung Volume one where this was mentioned and results are pervasive in bulletin boards. I can not argue if this is true or not. If this is not true with weekly remote screen cleanings then I should be fine.

    What do you currently use to make up for calcium and alkalinity in your system?

  8. #18
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    Re: Where are good sps tank?

    Lime water.

  9. #19

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    Re: Where are good sps tank?

    Ok Thanks for input.

    I am going to run tank as is except for some Iron dosed to tank and further increase feeding. I'll post back some pictures in future.

  10. #20

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    Re: Where are good sps tank?

    Scolymia has not opened in last 3-4 days. I have had that coral 5 years and it was only of the easiest to keep.

    I am assuming at this time it is due to scribbled rabbit fish, but not sure. SPS growth is my primary concern and they are all doing well and growing. I'll increase feeding if possible to oral disk and cover from fish.

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