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Thread: Can an ATS cause problems with Acropora / SPS?

  1. #1

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    Can an ATS cause problems with Acropora / SPS?

    First, I have been running a fairly successful ATS now for quite a while, and am a bit of an advocate.
    I have a reef tank, with fish and softies, but no SPS yet.
    I have been discussing various ATS strategies with some local experts as I migrate toward an SPS dominated reef tank.
    And some of what they said, and some scientific papers they pointed out, make me worry.
    (These are not alarmist ats-haters. It is a real concern)

    The premise is this: Algae produce various substances that
    crank up microbial activity, causing problems in SPS corals, especially Acropora.
    On key study was where they placed quite a bit of algae next to a coral, separated by a fine mesh.
    No algae - coral was fine.
    With algae - coral died off.
    With algae and antibiotics - coral was fine
    Not sure what type of algae it was.

    Enclosed is a quick graph from one paper showing the effect of algae.
    In particular, note the turf one.

    It is clear from what I have read that SOME algae can really hurt SPS coral, and that turf algae is probably one of those.
    It is not clear about hair algae, which is what vertical scrubbers grow.
    And of course, these studies were not about ATS systems, but more general coral bleaching.

    It does seem that carbon can eliminate the issue, as would big water changes.

    SO:
    Anyone out there know more details on this?
    Anyone out there have an ATS, and a decent amount of Acropora (not softies), and NOT run carbon?
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  2. #2

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    Re: Can an ATS cause problems with Acropora / SPS?

    I recently added 10+ Acropora, running perfect watervalues, thought I have algae in tank. I myself witnessed RTN on a few, almost instantly. I added carbon a few days ago and the RTN stopped, for now. The water has that crystal clear non natural look, and the corals seem more happy. This is in no way scientific, and my scrubber, however big, was not running enought stream at that time, so I can't really say either way. Some algae however, do extrude growth inhibiting toxins to the watercolum as this is one of their natural ways of "taking over the hood". Again, I do not have any science behind this, and from what I gather, in nature, there is far more water to dillute toxins, so the beneficial effects of algae are almost only positive.

    Then again, bacteria eat toxins. SPS eat zoo and phyto.

  3. #3

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    Re: Can an ATS cause problems with Acropora / SPS?

    Interesting. Fits what I have heard from others.
    Although there are so many variables, these things are hard to prove.
    But maybe there is something to this problem.

    Is your ATS growing hair or turf, or maybe slime?

  4. #4

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    Re: Can an ATS cause problems with Acropora / SPS?

    are they saying that the growth inhibitors effect all corals or just sps? also i have been told in the past that all soft corals also have growth inhibitors they release. i think santa said that the bacteria "eat" the toxins rendering them harmless, it would be nice to know for sure.

  5. #5
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    Re: Can an ATS cause problems with Acropora / SPS?

    Algae produce various substances that crank up microbial activity, causing problems in SPS corals, especially Acropora.
    If by "problems" you mean they grow too much, then yes.

    Several hundred studies on real reefs show basic reef operation: Algae produce vitamins, proteins and amino acids, which feed corals directly, and which feed microbs which feed corals directly, and the microbes then feed zooplankton which feed corals directly. That's how oceans work. When you use algae in your tank, then your tank operates like the ocean.

    One key study was where they placed quite a bit of algae next to a coral, separated by a fine mesh.
    There was another key study where one girl drank so much water that she died (really). She was "really close" to the water, so she drank lots of it, and she died in two hours. And yes, the death was documented as being caused by excessive water intake. There were other people with her, right next to her, in the same temperature air, drinking the same water (although not as much), and they did not die. So this MUST mean that "water kills people".

    Point is, hundreds of reefers (even me now) are growiong sps using algae-only filtering. How do you think this is possible if "algae kills sps"? If the people you are talking about were right, all the sps would die. But they are not; they are growing very fast (my digitata's double in mass every month if I feed a lot). SPS are the hardest to grow because they need a lot of light, and lots of food in the water. A lot of people have trouble with the food part.

    Enclosed is a quick graph from one paper showing the effect of algae.
    You should see the graph of the dead girl, and the effect of water on her.

    these studies were not about ATS systems, but more general coral bleaching.
    The studies you are talking about, if they are the ones I've read, are dealing with OTHER things that killed corals (water temp, etc) in the ocean, and then algae grows on the skeletons; when enough algae grows, they respire at night and reduce oxygen, (possibly, not tested) hurting the few remaining corals. This is the same as if you had 10 big fish in a small tank (WAY overcrowded) that you normally feed 10 cubes a day. If you started feeding 100 cubes a day, within a day or two the excess food will cause ammonia and loss of oxygen which would kill 9 of the fish. One fish might live, however the 9 other dead fish will now start rotting, and this extra bioload will kill the last fish.

    So does food normally kill fish? Does water kill people?

    Of course, scrubbers are on reverse photoperiods, and even when off they add oxygen from the waterfall, so the oxygen issue is a non-issue.

    It does seem that carbon can eliminate the issue, as would big water changes.
    Why would you want to eliminate the vitamins, proteins and amino acids that the acro's need to grow? When are you going to put these things back in?

    Anyone out there have an ATS, and a decent amount of Acropora (not softies), and NOT run carbon?
    MOST scrubber people don't run carbon. It defeats the purpose.

    Some algae however, do extrude growth inhibiting toxins to the watercolum as this is one of their natural ways of "taking over the hood".
    All algae exude DOC, which is then depleted by bacteria, which then feeds corals. That's how corals are fed.

    in nature, there is far more water to dillute toxins
    On natural reefs, most water is recycled; it is not "water changed" as people believe. The reason DOC on reefs is kept low is because what I just wrote above.

    I recently added 10+ Acropora, running perfect watervalues, thought I have algae in tank. I myself witnessed RTN
    Did you have any acro's before this? If so, then those are the ones to "watch"; not new ones that you just put in. New ones are going through far too much stress from just being moved from tank to tank. If you had acro's previously that were doing "poorly" for several month, and they you added carbon and they did better, you would then have something to look at. But not when adding them newly to the tank. And in the case of already having them, the carbon could have increased light that is reaching the corals, in which case it would really be the light that is the problem. I know it's mine... I only have 150 watt halides.

    i have been told in the past that all soft corals also have growth inhibitors they release.
    Exactly. And what do you think happens?... bacteria eats it.

    If you are going to mention "studies" then you need to post them. Since you didn't, I won't post any either, but I will direct you to one of the few threads on RC that covers many studes on exactly this topic (the last page or two details the consumption of DOC by bacteria)...

    http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1843241

    Remember, algae is 90 percent of all life in the ocean (besides bacteria). Algae does ALL the filtering, and ALL the feeding, for every living thing in the water.

  6. #6

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    Re: Can an ATS cause problems with Acropora / SPS?

    Yes SM, and this is why I cannot conclude. I recently added Carbon, and I've seen lots of tanks running traditional systems, and their Acros thrive. There are so many factors when introducing new corals, especially SPS that there is no way of saying. What I can say, however, is that with light reduced for 3 days, carbon and skimming, I don't have algae anymore in my tank. It was a really quick fix. On the other hand (Again too many variables) since I increased the flow over my screens, the growth there has been tremendously much greener and longer, so this could also be it. That said, my NPS are not happy anymore. Once my tank is rid of the algae, I will turn off skimmer and remove the carbon. I do however think I'll run carbon once a month for a short period to clear out any excessive toxins, much like you said in your RC post. I also run UV, but for other reasons. And water changes for correcting salts when dosing kalkwasser.

  7. #7
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    Re: Can an ATS cause problems with Acropora / SPS?

    You have the classic case of a weak scrubber: algae in the tank. And the classic case of not enough food in the water: NPS not doing well. Solution to both: scrub stronger, and add coral food (continuously would be best).

    The RC post is someone else, btw.

  8. #8

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    Re: Can an ATS cause problems with Acropora / SPS?

    Again, yes, and I asked you what you thought about the config and growth last week and you said "it runs fine". I don't think it runs fine, and would like to know how I can fix my problem. I have wastly enough light in close proximity. I have, or should have, enought flow (8k lph for a 75cm slot). The screens are very rough. Hate to make this into a post on my scrubber. What else am I missing?

  9. #9

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    Re: Can an ATS cause problems with Acropora / SPS?

    That bit with the girl drinking water did little more than confuse me.
    And no, I am not complaining about coral getting bigger.

    I am really not trying to bad-mouth scrubbers. Check my other threads.
    I have an ATS, and am happy with it, and want to use it going
    forward as I transition to SPS. But I am really worried.

    To be more specific on the problem:
    The algae somehow increase the number of microbes that are DAMAGING to SPS coral.
    Seems like the final result might be a viral infection.
    The coral dies, and does not grow bigger, no.
    Microbes liking algae makes sense to me. How they turn-bad, or overwhelm the coral, no idea.
    But if you eliminate those microbes, using antibiotics, the coral is happy again.
    If you add a lot of carbon, it seems to absorb these chemicals, and all is well.
    I do not pretend to know the mechanism, and even the authors do not.


    It could need a lot of algae to cause the problem yes, but then there is quite a bit in a scrubber.
    Not sure.

    Yes, most studies and papers start as a different discussion, to do with mass die-offs.
    But as part of those studies, they test the algae / coral interaction, and what is going on.
    Thus, those studies really do seem relevant.

    You are correct that Vannpytt's original experience with adding those SPS could be attributed to simple acclimation problems.
    Sounds like it is more than that though reading subsequent posts.

    From what I read/hear, it appears to be specific to SPS. Most LPS do not have this problem.
    And as I think I mentioned, I do have LPS now that is quite happy.

    Regarding studies and lack of citations: Yes, that was a problem.
    Go here:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed
    Search for:
    algae effect on coral
    Even without an account, the summaries are pretty good.

    If there are hundreds of success stories, can you please link to at least one.
    Decent size not-brownish Acropora + ATS + no carbon + no huge water changes.
    Having a skimmer is fine. Moderate water changes are fine.

    Your tank looks great. I looked at those pictures of course.
    But all I see is one small Acropora that is really rather funky looking, and not in a good way.
    Digitata seems to grow, but hard to tell if it supposed to be brown.

    That south african tank looks great.
    But at 15% water changes per week, he could probably ditch all the filtration and not notice.

    I have seen some other ATS+SPS, but never any with no carbon.

  10. #10

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    Re: Can an ATS cause problems with Acropora / SPS?

    Well Im just a new guy to reefing only 6 month into this hobby. My only filtration from the start has been the SM100. I have mostly lps and sps. My Acros are growing just fine. Mostly just frags but they are growing. I have one large orange digitata that I broke a piece off of about a month ago and never glued it to a plug. It is now attached to the rock. My purple haze monti that is just 2 months old has almost encrusted the 3" disk it is attached to. This is just my experience and again Im really new to this hobby. I only have a 55g with 6x54 watt TekElites
    There is a direct relation connecting the decline of pirates and the increase of global warming

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